Enlightenment today? Gone tomorrow


1. Rick
2. Hety
3. Paul
4. Julie
5. Holly
6. Chris
7. elargonauto
8. Lesley
9. Rick
10. RK Shankar
11. Joel
12. Bhavin
13. Julie
14. Rick
15. Julie
*******

From: Rick
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 00:07:06 +0000
Subject: [K-list] Enlightenment today? Gone tomorrow

Of those who are Enlightened, from the start of the Kundalini to the Enlightenment, how long did it take?

How long is a piece of string answers don't really help. I need to attach to numbers. Gopi Krishna took years and years, where others were much quicker, probably because of previous life work.

I'm also wondering once the Kundalini process starts whether a path is necessary any longer. Once you've found the path, the path has found you. You don't walk the path, rather the path walks you.

Also does the Kundalini process accelerate as it rises. This is from experience, i'm experiencing rapid increases in flow. The higher it rises, the more there is.

I feel impatient for the natural process to come to an end, does anyone else want this? I'm not interested in the fireworks, I want to see the grand finale and the curtain close.

*****

Rick

You're too impatient and basing your expectations on ego. Who knows? Perhaps a more important and provacative question is WHY??? Has it ever been answered?

Why do you think it is we're stuck inside these stupid (%*$#(% bodies and can't get out?

Hety

*****

Who's "enlightened" on this list? I think either we're all enlighten or none of us are enlightened. We tend to mythologize the masters. I see them just as human beings who've attained remarkable states of balance and grace and are able to communicate wisdom to others.

We've all had enlightening *experiences.* Some of us have had kundalini awakenings that are like having all the doors swing open at once. Then the experience is over. You're in a better place.... a room with a view. Life goes on and you still say ouch when the hammer hits your finger. We had an event that was enlightening, but I don't think any of us will don a white robe and claim that we've "attained enlightenment." Some of us have walked on fire. Water?...... na, the ferry's still the best way to get to Satin Island.

Perhaps we each have our own yardsticks to measure what enlightenment is. Maybe *you* are enlightened! Do you like your life? Are you at home in your own skin? Is love a something that you feel for the world as a whole?

> How long is a piece of string answers don't really help. I need to attach > to numbers.........

As far as the K event goes, it's such a personal journey that leads up to it. When did a person start? Who can say? This is not a science.

> Also does the Kundalini process accelerate as it rises. This is from > experience, I'm experiencing rapid increases in flow. The higher it rises, > the more there is.

I believe it accelerates, too.

> I feel impatient for the natural process to come to an end, does anyone else > want this? I'm not interested in the fireworks, I want to see the grand > finale and the curtain close.

It will indeed come to an end. Try not to force a conclusion.

I loved the subject heading of your post!

Perhaps we're all enlightenment today and gone tomorrow!

Paul

*******

Dear Rick,

> > Of those who are Enlightened, from the start of the Kundalini to the > Enlightenment, how long did it take?

I remember asking this question! I also remember trying to work out what enlightenment was and coming up with an answer! Years later I've got no idea what enlightenment is. I remember reading a quote of Einstein's somewhere that said something like if human beings could use 100% of their brain their bodies would be transformed into pure energy. The Taoist stories of Master's dying and their bodies dissolving either immediately or over 7 days into rainbow light leaving behind only their finger and toe nails echo this thought too, for me.

> > How long is a piece of string answers don't really help. I need to attach > to numbers. Gopi Krishna took years and years, where others were much > quicker, probably because of previous life work.

It might have something to do with what they are going to do with their life as well. Gopi Krishna saw many Master's in the land of Master's and their were no answers for him. In the end the answers came from within. This seems to have produced a really strong drive to advance the scientific understanding of the phenomena. This is a very important area at the moment when drugs are being prescribed like lollies without differentiation or understanding. I wonder sometimes if the medical profession are prescribing away our future.

Jung is another who found his answers from within. He was out of action for 6 years after his split with Freud. He clearly stated that the work that followed all came out of this period.

Gestation takes time!

> > I'm also wondering once the Kundalini process starts whether a path is > necessary any longer. Once you've found the path, the path has found you. > You don't walk the path, rather the path walks you.

Perhaps you just become the path?

> > Also does the Kundalini process accelerate as it rises. This is from > experience, i'm experiencing rapid increases in flow. The higher it rises, > the more there is.

I think it does. I also think that it never ends - it is the infinite and eternal dance. The gathering and release of charge.

"I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union." -Aiwass (Book of Law)

> I feel impatient for the natural process to come to an end, does anyone else > want this? I'm not interested in the fireworks, I want to see the grand > finale and the curtain close.

It sounds like "THE END" to me. What will you do then?

Professor Wong (my chinese doctor) once said to me "You come from nothing - you go back to nothing - What are you in such a hurry for?" Perhaps the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is the rainbow itself.

I love the title of your post, too. Seems like an enlightened statement to me!

Regards,

Julie.

******

There are many definitions of enlightenment.

One is Self-realization, i.e., the absolute seeing through the illusion of a personal self, the experience of no-self, etc. This took about 4 years after k-awakening.

But this was only the beginning.

Holly

********

>I feel impatient for the natural process to come to an end, does anyone >else >want this? I'm not interested in the fireworks, I want to see the grand >finale and the curtain close

Yes I want this too and I know that it is only through this kind of single= minded obsession that we will arrive there

Go for it!

Chris O

********

Hola!

>Of those who are Enlightened, from the start of the Kundalini to the >Enlightenment, how long did it take?

I thik you can be enlightened and THEN start the kundalini. I mean, get the meaning of the universe and then, because of that, trigger the kundalini process of absolute cleaning of karma.

It is like the experience of Ramana Maharshi. He was enlightened suddenly at the age of 16. And it took two or three years to stabilize at that state. He spent doing deep medition (near catatonia) long periods of that time.

In other words I think you can be elightened without harmony but if you tends towards harmony then you tends towards elightement.

>How long is a piece of string answers don't really help. I need to attach >to numbers. Gopi Krishna took years and years, where others were much >quicker, probably because of previous life work.

I repeat what I wrote before. I think it is different to be at wonderfull health and harmony to be enlightened.

I think in this example if you were elightened I donīt think you would care too much when your kundalini process would end.

>I'm also wondering once the Kundalini process starts whether a path is >necessary any longer. Once you've found the path, the path has found you. >You don't walk the path, rather the path walks you.

Personally what triggered my kundalini was just being. There are some philosohers like Jean Klein or Eric Baret that defend the no-path. I agree with them.

>Also does the Kundalini process accelerate as it rises. This is from >experience, i'm experiencing rapid increases in flow. The higher it rises, >the more there is.

The way to completitude need to fit ALL the parts of your body & mind. So I guess there will be a moment at the end when everyithing start going well again that things will get faster.

>I feel impatient for the natural process to come to an end, does anyone else >want this? I'm not interested in the fireworks, I want to see the grand >finale and the curtain close.

It is a paradox, but precesely the trick is in enjoying the journey. :)). The example of elightened people for Chuang-Tse were artisans. It could be the end of the path is just to be all right. Nothing else.

I think it depends on the potential of the person too. But of course, there can be great fireworks. :))

elargonauto.

*********

Hi Rick:

There are quite a few people who are Enlightened on this list and on Harsha's list but most of them are not likely to write about it, mostly because there's no need to or they just don't want to be bothered.

Angelique describes Enlightenment as a Journey, rather than a place.

A very knowledgable wizard I know, who has also given me very good advice, says that it really is a process of "lightening" as a person sheds fears, blocks, mental imprisoning ideas, and burdens that we have chosen to carry. So in that sense, both he and Angelique are on the same page.

But based on your questions none of that is likely to be helpful to you. The following might be:

Based on Valerie Hunt's research, written about in Infinite Mind, where she measured the vibrations from a Master using the same kind of telemmetry equipment that NASA uses to monitor astronauts, only much more sensitive, it appears that a person who is considered enlightened has vibrations that ranged in a wide band around 300,000 Hz. My memory may not be completely accurate on this. I gave the book away, otherwise I would have looked it up for you.

Healers had vibrations over a wide band in the 100,000 Hz range. I would say that someone who's vibrations are around 300,000 Hz could be considered Enlightened but who knows if that is really a high enough vibration. I've heard that the vibrations can go much higher, to the speed of light. Now is that person really Enlightened?

If that person has become light itself, I would say yes. And that might give rise to the effects you discuss in your email. So where you are in the process may be measureable if you can find a researcher doing this type of research :)

> Of those who are Enlightened, from the start of the > Kundalini to the > Enlightenment, how long did it take?

Nobody can really say how long the process takes. It appears that for Tolle Eckhart, The Power of Now, that it happened rapidly. For others, a lifetime is not enough. There's another really good book, written by the co-founder of Esalen, called the Future of the Body which gives all kinds of very interesting research, case study, and anecdotal information about the kinds of changes that occur in the process and I certainly found it very helpful and it might help you see where you are at as well.

From that book and others I have read, such as the Teachings of the Masters of the Far East, I have markers I now look for in a person. Can you create something that is alive from something that isn't? That's a very good marker for fifth dimension existence but it is not, by itself, a marker for Enlightenment. It's a progress sign though. Can you love something to bits? That's a sign you can focus the energy of love in a sufficiently focused manner to bring about a correction in circumstances where one is needed. For example, enough people meditating in an area bring about changes in that area such as a reduction in crime. A Master meditating beside a reservoir for one hour brought about such changes in the water that it's before and after changes when frozen were clearly identifiable.

Can you intuit scientific advances and know about them before they exist? Another marker. Can you completely control your thoughts? Can you create something truly, completely, absolutely original that cannot be replicated by anyone else, a tool, a process, a medicinal compound? That was required by workers serving apprenticeships in France where they studied a craft by day--stonemasons, stained glass window making, carpentry. In the evenings, they went to mystery school. You had to create your own tools to graduate, producing something completely original. The red and blue colors in the stained glass windows in Notre Dame cannot be duplicated. The shamans discussed in the Cosmic Serpent produce astonishing compounds such as curare from their visions without having labs to test them in (curare is one such example. Cosmic Serpent is another book describing such feats). But are the shamans enlightened as well?

Really, the simplest test is the person's energy. Sometimes I meet somebody who I know is Enlightened simply because the glory of the light shining out of the person is ineffable, beyond description. Then I know I have met the Immortal in mortal form and it is truly humbling. But when you will get there is unknowable until you are.

What I do know is that if you try to hurry the process, you bring down upon yourself the worst kind of Chinese curse--"may you become enlightened in a week." I tried that route and it just about killed me. I've spent a long time picking up the pieces of trying to accelerate the process, even though I felt I had a really good reason for doing it. My beloved mother had cancer and I was trying to become a healer so I could kill the cancer cells. I learned to kill cancer cells allright, but my mother died anyway. And I almost followed her.

> I'm also wondering once the Kundalini process starts > whether a path is > necessary any longer. Once you've found the path, > the path has found you. > You don't walk the path, rather the path walks you.

Shakti is truly intelligent. I consider it to be Cosmic intelligence. You can resist it, but you usually cannot really stop it. I was in so much trouble at one point that my wizard friend recommended a psychologist in Arizona who specializes in helping people in trouble on the Path by slowing down the process or sending it into some kind of recession, but I found plotinus.com instead, then through that, this site and got all the help I needed from Angelique.

> Also does the Kundalini process accelerate as it > rises. This is from > experience, i'm experiencing rapid increases in > flow. The higher it rises, > the more there is.

What I've seen from this list that there are commonalities in the process for most but it's truly as unique for each person as your DNA. It's also not predictable.

Not sure if this helps. Perhaps a question is in order? What does your ego you plan to do once Enlightened?

Love, Lesley

> I feel impatient for the natural process to come to > an end, does anyone else > want this? I'm not interested in the fireworks, I > want to see the grand > finale and the curtain close.

The dumb thing is that there's this little phrase that is absolute truth that has been quoted on this list before. Chop wood, carry water, become enlightened, chop wood, carry water.

People on this list have astonishing capacities but for most, by the time they get those capacities, the interest in them has gone and they get used only when directed. Really, we live in a play and are actors in it. That's so trite, and so true. The difference is that you can watch the play from your eyes, watch yourself in the play, watch the others in the play, watch the great Archetypes many thoughts playing and focusing together create, such as the Hero archetype, or the Wrathful God archetype, watch the world play, sit in the black and the twinkling lights rushing by, catch them and throw them, and let the intelligence of the lights change the play.

When a superbly gifted writer such as George Lucas taps into those archetypes and creates Star Wars, so many humans resonate with the archetype that the movies are a smash hit.

********

> I remember reading a quote of Einstein's somewhere that said
> something like if human beings could use 100% of their brain their
> bodies would be transformed into pure energy. The Taoist stories of
> Master's dying and their bodies dissolving either immediately or over
> 7 days into rainbow light leaving behind only their finger and
> toe nails echo this thought too, for me.

I've not heard this. It would appear the K is making me extremely impatient lately, something that i'm not used to. In fact I can't concentrate either, which is alarming!

>Jung is another who found his answers from within. He was out of
> action >for >6 years after his split with Freud. He clearly stated that the work that >followed all came out of this period.

This is an interesting symbolic death of the ego and rebirth into spirit. Freud represents the ego very clearly.

>Gestation takes time! > > > > I'm also wondering once the Kundalini process starts whether a path is > > necessary any longer. Once you've found the path, the path has found >you. > > You don't walk the path, rather the path walks you. > >Perhaps you just become the path?

So by finding the path you find yourself, because you are the path. That's why the path leads no where. This makes sense.

> > I feel impatient for the natural process to come to an end, does anyone >else > > want this? I'm not interested in the fireworks, I want to see the grand > > finale and the curtain close. > > >It sounds like "THE END" to me. What will you do then?

This is the big question for me. As I disassociate from body consciousness the events that used to fill my time, shopping, friends etc have less and less meaning, and only that what is spritual, eternal interests me. I ask myself what others do for things like entertainment, and yet I don't feel the same fulfillment that they do from the same activities. I feel stuck in a loop between 2 worlds.

In fact I feel as if my point of awareness has been dimmed, I can no longer focus like I used to be able to. It's a little disconcerting, because it feels as if i've lost control. That point of awareness has been lost within me, and smudged out.

>Professor Wong (my chinese doctor) once said to me "You come from nothing >- >you go back to nothing - What are you in such a hurry for?" Perhaps the >pot >of gold at the end of the rainbow is the rainbow itself.

Good point!

Rick

*******

> I feel impatient for the natural process to come to an end, > single minded obsession that we will arrive there.

True, longing is like the rosy dawn Soon follows the Sun of Realization

Thanks and kind regards

RK Shankar

********

This brings to mind the quote from Suzuki Roshi:

"Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity. What we are speaking about is moment-to-moment enlightenment, one enlightenment after another."

Joel

*******

> From: Rick <<>> > I feel impatient for the natural process to come to an end, does anyone > else > want this? I'm not interested in the fireworks, I want to see the grand > finale and the curtain close.

Rick,

Swami Ji says: "Don't be too hungry for the Nirvana", and "you must help the people, this is more important". Relax. Go with the natural flow.

Swami Ji also says: "Nirvana is not [just] the end, it is [also] the beginning" ["just" and "also" are my insertions for possible clarification].

Remember the traditional story of the little girl who liked flowers and was too impatient? She tried to force the flowers by opening up the buds to see the final form. What was the result?

Bhavin.

*******

> >It sounds like "THE END" to me. What will you do then? > > This is the big question for me. As I disassociate from body consciousness > the events that used to fill my time, shopping, friends etc have less and > less meaning, and only that what is spritual, eternal interests me.

Rick, for me disassociating from body consciousness is a problem. I can't do this and feel whole or happy. In fact, I can't do this and feel! Rather I finish up having thoughts that mascarade as feelings. Over the years since my Kundalini rose I have come to appreciate my body more and more. I often watch it and am amazed at it's simple, effective, elegance. I also think that it is through our personal body that we connect into the wisdom of the larger cosmic body. Even before my K rose and I was about to give birth to my daughter, I walked out the front door to go to the hospital, and started to panic. The wisdom of my body kicked in and I knew it knew what to do even if I didn't feel up to the task. I knew all I had to do was trust it. I giggled and walked to the car. Three hours later my beautiful daughter took her first breath. My "knowing" comes to me through my body.

Yet, this knowing has often been blocked. I think that as a species we human's have had a lot of difficulty accepting our animal nature. We are both fascinated and repelled by our animal functions and it is this that blocks up our system and removes us from our birthright of access to universal wisdom. This attitude to the natural is now deeply embedded in the collective human psyche and it takes some working through for most of us. One of the reason's that I chose this list to join was Mystress Angelique Serpent. I admire the way that she has worked through these inhibitary blocks of our mind and is so up front about them. I think that this is a big part of the primal split in our psyche and it makes our body, and particularly our sexual nature into the Devil. Before Adam and Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, the tree of good and evil, they didn't realise that they were different. They had just been enjoying the Garden of Eden. After their bite they became self aware and found fig leaves to "cover their shame."

The history of humanity is filled with covering our shame and we have a basement that is chock filled with it. Jung postulated a collective and a personal unconscious as well as a conscious area of the human psyche. The ego for him was the point of awareness that was the centre of this conscious area whose contents are always available to the ego. This is the place where we store the idea or map of who we are. In a spiritual crises the contents of the personal unconscious starts to bubble up into consciousness and the ego is often overwhelmed. The personal unconscious is like a band of information pertaining to this life that surrounds our conscious area and forms a barrier to the free flow of the collective unconscious. This is imformation that we have repressed or forgotten It has the force and energy of the archetypes of the collective unconscious behind it and it uses this force to penetrate consciousness. In our efforts to become spiritual we have segregated and dissasociated from our animal nature and other naturally human experiences and it now presents as the shadow. The shadow and anima/animus is the map of who we think we are not. I believe that unless we confront and humbly accept these aspects of ourselves we remain in bondage to them. Then we project this part of ourselves onto others in order to pretend we are superior. Appreciating the untamed, amoral and natural body helps to integrate it into our totality. We are either all things or no thing.

All of this happens quite naturally and often you only realise this in hindsight. At the moment you are internally focused. This won't always be the case. With Kundalini you are tapping into incredible resourses that are absolutely trustworthy.

Warmest regards,

Julie.

********

Very thoughtful post.

I would like to add some further thoughts.

limited mind consciousness(ego) -> complete body consciousness -> animal nature -> wanting to re-connect with natureI wanted to add in the re-connecting to nature part especially.

I think many of us feel disconnected from nature, and I really long to find a way to become whole with it on a permanent basis.

To become one with the earth, the animals, the mountains and the hills. The concrete city is like ego in a way, suffocating and choking and nature, the healing mother prepared to take anyone into her bosom and provide loving *healing* care.

I find it very difficult to accept my body, I criticise it a lot and yet it's the platform for everything including the spiritual journey.

The body sexuality topic is for me the hardest one to deal with.

Society's repression has caused so much damage, it takes a long time to work your way through the trauma.

Just to repeat the words I am a sexual being is so very difficult, and sometimes laughable. We should'nt take it seriously, seriousness is a disease.

You mentioned the devil. To me the devil is nothing but the ego from a Christian viewpoint. It's interesting to view sexuality as the devil.

I do trust Kundalini, however rough the journey is or hopefully is not, I like to think of the Self guiding me home for the greater good.

********

Hi Rick,

Rick wrote,> limited mind consciousness(ego) -> complete body consciousness -> animal> nature -> wanting to re-connect with nature

That's the feeling.

So many people are just walking heads.

Sometimes I sit down and look at peoples bodies and how they are moving. So many have lost a spontaneous and free flowing movement.

I was with a 7 month old baby the other day. She was in a bouncer so that her body was supported in anunrestricting way. When she laughed it was a full body laugh. Her body wiggled, legs kicked and arms waved. Her whole face lit up like a lamp. Such fullness of expression. Her laughter was contagious and she got lots of attention as we shared her pleasure.

(snip)>> I find it very difficult to accept my body, I criticise it a lot and yet> it's the platform for everything including the spiritual journey. The body> sexuality topic is for me the hardest one to deal with.

For me it has been too and I'm still not sure if I'm through it although Ihave been fairly comfortable with it for a few years now.

>Society's repression has caused so much damage, it takes a long time to work> your way through the trauma.

Yes. Repression of our sexual nature have been in place now for over 4,000 years in the Western World. We have made our sexual instinct our enemy andkept it in very limited confines. From it's prison it exerts enormous influence over our decision making processes. Does the young solicitor really want the sports car (as he believes) or does he really want the girl on the bonnet? The society says that monogamy is the ideal yet less than half of the society is able to live up to it. The more we repress our instincts the more compulsively they move us and the more guarded we need to be to stop them from slipping out and sabotaging our intentions.

>Just to repeat the words I am a sexual being is so very> difficult, and sometimes laughable. We should'nt take it seriously,> seriousness is a disease.
>> You mentioned the devil. To me the devil is nothing but the ego from a> Christian viewpoint. It's interesting to view sexuality as the devil.

I don't think the devil is sexuality or ego. I think the devil is all the things we think we are not, the shadow and anima/animus. Adam and Eve by eating from the tree discovered themselves to be male and not female/femaleand not male.

From that time on humanity as a collective and individually has continued to become identified with things by saying I'm this and not that. We have an enormous pile of stuff that we think we are and another that we think we are not.

Sexuality fascinates us but we feel guilty about it because we think we are not animals. Being animals repells us. We are also afraid of it because at it's peak we loose control and another primary instinct, our safety instinct, feels that loosing control will put our life in jeopardy. These two instincts do battle within us sometimes. Other times one is suppressed at the expense of the other. We become whole again by not identifying with either pile of things.

In physical existence this translates into recognising that all things are frozen energy patterns spontaneously arising within the one consciousness and have a place within it. Yet we don't know the whole story and things often get out of place. We become aware of awareness (also a part of our one consciousness) that has a broader and more encompassing view and develop a relationship with it.

Sooner or later we learn to trust it and allow it to guide our individual movement through matter's energy patterns. The more we transform thepersonal unconscious by consciously watching it as it presents the clearer this direction becomes.

> I do trust Kundalini, however rough the journey is or hopefully is not, I> like to think of the Self guiding me home for the greater good.

Me, too. This greater good includes us as well.

Thanks again for another wonderful post.

Warmest regards,

Julie.