To: K-list
Recieved: 2004/01/19 02:51
Subject: Re: [K-list] Re: Applied and Sustained Concentration Leads to
From: Macdocaz1
On 2004/01/19 02:51, Macdocaz1 posted thus to the K-list:
Hello Rich in py-jhama's, and thank-you for your kind and thoughtful reply.
Please see my inline comments below:
In a message dated 1/17/04 8:37:23 PM, richATulterium.com writes:
<< Hi Jeff,
I've enjoyed to read of your experiences with Jhana practise and glad you
can contribute on this list. I found also that the Buddha followed Jhana
practise (http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/janas.html),
although it is not said if he followed this to Enlightenment.
[For anyone interested, I found this site describing the 8 Jhana states.] >>
%%%%%%% Jeff:
I am glad you have found my contribution to this list of value. I find when
people speak from personally experience there is often more useful information
revealed than when they speak only from what they have read or heard.
Thank-you for the link, yes I am familiar with angelfire, Leigh Brasington
and Bhante Gunaratana. While I find these sources have been of value to me,
they tend to speak from the Visuddhimagga, which is a 5th century commentary,
which does not seem to have the weight of authority that the Pali canon speaks
with.
Actually if you read the Nikayas (Pali canon), you will see that the jhanas
was indeed the method the historic Buddha followed to nibbana, although there
are plenty of Pali scholars willing to debate this issue. But, most jhana
practitioners find plenty of evidence to support the premise that nibbana is
simply arrived at after passing through the 8th absorption (jhana). Dogen even
considered nibbana simply the 9th level of absorption (jhana/dhyana).
%%%%%%%
<< Rich in py-jhama's:
I'm interested to hear how well your 'absorption' states can be brought into
your normal waking life. It is one thing to meditation for 4 or 5 hours in a
day and something else to live and be in the here and now unimpeded. >>
%%%%%%% Jeff:
I begin each day and end each day with these absorption states, and they have
thus saturated my moment-to-moment reality with various charismatic
manifestations that I find described on this list as Kundalini. Therefore they are in
my "normal" life. This is my normal life. But, no, I do not work a 40 hour a
week job. I gave that up about 14 years ago when I found the "normal" life
was impeding my contemplative practice.
I have found a contemplative must often transform one's life to accommodate
the spiritual journey, not the other way around. In fact I believe the
difficulties people experience with the spiritual awakening are often due to either
an inability, or an unwillingness, to make the necessary changes in one's life
that the spiritual awakening is demands.
%%%%%%%
<< Rich in py-jhama's:
My own experience follows Hillary's to a degree that if clear of emotional
baggage meditative states seem more a natural experience rather than
something reached for. >>
%%%%%%% Jeff:
Yes, I am aware of many of the premises that have been concluded by the
various K lists. While I value the service the people on these lists offer, I do
not however support all of their conclusions. A belief that freedom from "emoti
onal baggage" produces naturally arising "meditative states" is one that I do
not subscribe to. If that were true then people giving rise to spontaneous
arising kundalini would have no problems, but you and I both know that is not
true. Another way of looking at your premise, is if it were true then those
people who go through many years of psycho therapy would arrive spontaneously at
spiritual awakening, but that is not true either.
I do however agree that freeing oneself of emotional "baggage," or impurities
as the Buddha called it, is most definitely a necessity. In fact he
considered it one of the 4 corner stones of his practice regimen (Satipatthana).
I went through 10 years of weekly therapy in my process of awakening, however
I was also engaged in a contemplative practice regimen at the same time. I
did not find at any time that one negated or replaced the other. However I did
arrive at a place where I was sufficiently free from objectified ego
structures that therapy was no longer relevant.
%%%%%%%
<< Rich in py-jhama's:
Reading both your own and Guy's post it seems there is emptiness within and
there is emptiness without. Does this make any sense? Not so easy to explain
but just noticing the feeling in your words and Guy's there is a difference.
>>
%%%%%%% Jeff:
Yes, I too see a difference in our philosophies and a resultant difference in
our results. If you examine brain wave research there are four stages of the
psyche Beta, Alpha, Theta, and Delta. If one never works in the three lower
ranges one never has an opportunity to deepen one's emptiness, therefore one's
emptiness is only going to effect the surface mind. This is why meditation
is required, so that one works on establishing awareness, as well as calm and
equanimity (emptiness) at deep levels of the psyche as well.
%%%%%%%
<< Rich in py-jhama's:
> I find people in the throws of the spiritual awakening (kundalini) I know
> what will help them is cultivating a calm and still mind through a daily
> meditation practice. Because that is what I did, and it carried me
> through the other
> side of the dark night.
<< Rich in py-jhama's:
Yes, I wonder that, is it possible from focussing on singular aspects of
self, that it may deny the greater and all encompassing aspects? >>
%%%%%%% Jeff:
Yes, I believe you are right, if one is constantly focused on the surface
mind, then that is all one is going to have an effect on. If one meditates then
one can access all levels of the psyche.
%%%%%%%
> Asking one who is suffering to simply stop thinking and worrying, is like
> asking someone with a headache to stop having the headache. I do not
> think one asking you for an aspirin would be please with such a response.
<< Rich in py-jhama's:
Hmmm. We could turn the headache over to divine and let it knead it better
or we could absorb ourselves into something else and forget the headaches
presence. Is the second as effective or as lasting? >>
%%%%%%% Jeff:
Yes, I transfer unpleasant sensations into ecstasy all of the time, I have
even turned the passing of kidney stones into scintillating sensations of bliss,
but that took me a few decades of meditation practice to get to. I was
simply speaking metaphorically regarding someone who comes here in suffering, are
you going to simply say, just say "no" to your suffering, or are you going to
give them something that will actually relieve their suffering?
%%%%%%%
> However one with a nondualist view alone, has not yet gotten to
> absorption (jhana), nor will one, without meditation.
<< Rich in py-jhama's:
Is absorption absolutely necessary? It almost seems like your imperative. >>
%%%%%%% Jeff:
You are on a K list and you ask me whether absorption is necessary? What do
you think K is? It is the manifestations of absorption.
%%%%%%%
> There are eight absorptions
> (Jhanas) beyond emptiness, but I do not believe one will get to them
> without a contemplative practice regimen.
But here you say 'I do not believe' one will get to Jhana, but, before you
say 'nor will one' (get to Jhana) without meditation.
How can I be certain in what you do not appear certain about.
Rich (Going to rest in py-jhana's) >>
%%%%%%% Jeff:
I am sorry you find it necessary to critic my English. I do not believe such
a tactic will further our dialog.
Kindest regards,
Jeff Brooks
DISCLAIMER!
Home | Archive Index | Search the archives | Subscribe
K. List FAQ | Kundalini FAQs | Signs and Symptoms | Awakening Experiences | K. list Polls | Member Essays | Meditations | List Topics | Art Gallery | Cybrary | Sitemap | Email the moderators.
symbol.