To: K-list
Recieved: 2003/10/01 18:42
Subject: RE: [K-list] Fear is fear
From: Rich
On 2003/10/01 18:42, Rich posted thus to the K-list:
Maybe a little late to return back to this. I gained benefit from this
discussion. I kept coming back to a few things mentioned below...
MAS wrote:
> * I think, what Elargonauto is saying, is to allow the fearful
> thoughts
> *to rise, acknowledge them instead of trying to deny or repress them. Real
> *courage is not fearlessness, it is being afraid and acting anyway.
Rita made the distinction which I noticed also about anxiety and
uncontrollable / overwhelming fear (or terror). It seemed like when
Elargonauto and I were talking about fear before, our idea of what fear
meant was different. Obviously this is true, but this is valuable. If either
or both or us seeing different then either or both of us are not clear in
fear.
To re-hash some ground... For anxiety, it is perhaps easier to shrug off the
feeling and focus on the now. But for some fear I find this is not easy.
Strengths differ. This is what I try to understand. I am not sure if
Elargonauto was interested in looking much at terror / panic type fear. This
may be the case and perhaps in general life a good thing. Caring about fears
is feeding them energy to grow, thus making them more effecting.
My take on this is a little different. I like to deal with things. My fear
is something to be overcome. I don't care much about anxiety but panic is
something I wish to find a better behaviour towards. Going crazy is not me.
A clear detached response seems preferable. Sometimes it can be like this
and other times I am overcome by the fear. That is when it is hard, to
re-center, re-ground and surrender. I am going into resistance.
For example, I have found sometimes when I have to talk in front of an
audience and my energy is depleted and maybe I have many things on my mind
then my body shakes and trembles. I want to run away and not exist. This is
my body reacting. Even when I acknowledge it and breath deeply from navel
and empty my thoughts, it still doesn't go away.
Strangely, sometimes once I get started with any kind of speech or
discussion often my fear vanishes and it's not unusual for me to fully enjoy
the experience.
If I introspect on this, then I can pull up trauma and stuff but I've never
got to the bottom of it. I want to feel at ease in any such situation.
Sometimes I do in fact. So it is strange that when I'm not centred and
filled within, I have this 'irrational' fear coming from the recesses of my
shadow.
I can try and 'shake' the fear out but it is still there. The only times
I've handled it once was in a group exercise I did where I learned to
exaggerate how I felt until the feeling left me (which really worked)...
other times, was when I actually said to the group what was making me
nervous or that I was nervous.
But, it doesn't go away... It may go away or go unnoticed for the a while
but it never seems to leave me fully. Something stuck within this body-mind.
I've heard EFT or TAT have some benefit for this type of thing but for me
not enough.
Interesting I will just note at other times when I am so far depleted and
exhausted, like very sick then my fear seems to leave me then. It's as if I
don't care anymore about the outcome or future.
I know it is possible to go beyond fear. Having certain fears seems to
attract adverse situations, like paranoia, which I've found escalates in
proportions as fearful thoughts and projections create a reality around
myself to match that which I get sucked into more.
Okay... Without going on and on and on... Talking in circles. I do see a
little more ground in this. Am I fighting my opinion or speaking some truth.
I am trying to be careful here. It is interesting to talk of fear and not be
influenced by it.
I believe strongly there is a Zen state where there is absence of fear. Only
presence. Secured from divine within. Attention not caught up in fearful
thoughts.
Elargonauto wrote:
> Yep. But I wanted to tell too that there is a meaning in the fears.
Fears are irrational. Finding meaning in them serves what?
Is this diversion to leaving them and letting them leave?
Fear can be like an old video being replayed because it was not fully
surrendered to first time round. Stuck in the unconscious / body memory.
It's the deepness and 'stickyness' of these things which make them a hell
hole to clear. We become so used to them that it feels funny without them.
Re-creating them in imagination and putting in crap to fill up the gap.
> That it´s not a part of yourselve that is errouneous, that have a cause to
> be like that. I´ll try to explain this ... :).
>
> Someone can have "fear" of open spaces. Each time he thinks about
> going to open space he feels sick. The first thought is to think that this
> is irrational. Why should he fear open spaces? There is no danger there.
>
> But at least in my experience there are good reasons behind this
> fears.
I think what you are saying is there is 'cause' for fear.
> For example, this person has been a POW and have remained three years
> underground. Now, he feel sick and vulnerable at open space. Everytime he
> thinks about going to open space he feel uneasy He has fear of something
> of
> wich he shouldn´t but there is a reason for it. His body is not "liying
> him", his body and feelings are perfectly allright. They just advice him
> not
> to do something that "makes him feel bad". His body is telling him to not
> go
> to open space becouse he is going to "feel sick".
For some it may seem irrational. To a realised soul it is perfection. Whose
eyes do we choose to look through?
If his body is sick and he thinks this is fine then this is fine for him. If
his body reacts and he resists to this then it may not be fine for him.
If he thinks he cannot undo his craziness then this way it will be for him.
But what if he has belief in the idea he can clear this scar?
Everything being created to the beat of infinite chaos. The play of harmony
and disharmony.
Change our view and change everything. As someone reminded me lately (and I
think I read from Elaronauto also), being awakened and fixed in higher
dimensions is not living a life. Integrating our wholeness makes for greater
fulfilment. For this reason coming to terms with fear and releasing it seems
more relevant. Fears *can* be trapping and take 'us' away from the present.
> So, the problem is not his feelings or the fear. The problem is that
> he
> has been three years underground and it will take him a long time till he
> get used to open space.
As you said it is not erroneous. I don't see the problem, although we can
imagine this imaginary person is experiencing one and wants to do something
with it. Problems stem from need and want.
What I don't follow is are you saying 'time' is the only thing which will
allow this person to get used to open spaces? This would be subjective, for
what does 'get used to' mean?
> When people thinks about this kind of fears ( "irrational fears")
> they can think they are erroneous, that there is a part of themselves who
> is
> not going well. This aproach make the people untrust themselves, their
> fellings, their body because they think is not working allright. So they
> loose confidence in themselves and start doing all kind of "right" things
> ( Usually fighting their fears and untrusting their feelings). Who only
> get
> them further away from their center.
Yes. When the fear is powerful, and someone want to 'fit in' then of course.
They loose the control of self, the focus and clarity. This is what I've
been trying to express from early on. Some fears knock us over like a struck
pin on a bowling alley.
> * I have a fear of heights, and I like to challenge it, for the rush.
> *Gradually, it is fading. It is quite specific, I'm OK with heights as
> long
> *as I can see solid ground under my feet. Fire escapes, with the metal web
> *risers I can see through, spook me. Totally illogical.
>
> This is what I was speaking about. I admit there can be some people
> where the fears have no reason. But I think 99.9% of them can be explained
> knowing about the life of this person.
Do you know how your particular fears came into play? I find fear complex in
the way I try to understand a tree with as many branches.
> A good example for it are sensible children. They can "get fear" of
> something easily. Throw him to the swimming pool and is probable that he
> won´t swim in the rest of his life. Everytime he goes near a swimming pool
> he will remenber this experience and will feel bad. It could be that at
> his
> school he is obligated to swim with other children. And verytime he does
> it
> he have to go through a bad experience. After some years, it could be that
> verytime he thinks about swimming he feels bad. Aparently it is
> illogical,
> but in reality there is a cause behind it. His body is advising him that
> swimming is going to be a bad experience for him.
Yes! Trauma. Handling this one thing may be enough but for experience many
fears (not all) go across lives and run deep. They are tricky to come to
peace with.
I must have been writing on this for hours. It's changed many times. Getting
insights as I write and introspect. Some things resolving as I do.
Strangely and perhaps fitting... A story to end...
A few days ago before I left my home land again, I was having a final dinner
with my family. It was during desert, that I found myself at the receiving
end of a misplaced passion fruit seed. It had been inhaled rather than
swallowed.
It was an interesting experience. First I noticed my shortness of breath and
then a deep fear came up through me that I might die as my lungs were not
breathing fully. It is a feeling I know for I have had this before when
thinking I may die. This time was a little different.
For sure there was a moment of deep panic but I didn't give that any
attention. I surrendered my attention to it and just found myself glaring at
things on the table. Reading something but not caring about the meaning.
I was concerned and cautious but not fearful or in shock. Instead of
panicking I found I was acting very calmly. Although someone around me was
trying to suggest something and throw her ego idea to me, I didn't pay any
attention. I paid attention to nothing. Just being mindful. Observing but
not enduring.
One person said 'the body has its natural way of getting things out'. I
found some comfort in this idea, and quietly left the table.
I receded to my bedroom and had a lot of forced coughing and a bit of
inverted yoga.
I'm now an ex-passion fruit seed victim :)
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh
Rich
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