To: K-list
Recieved: 2003/09/30 12:54
Subject: RE: [K-list] Philosophical question
From: Mystress Angelique Serpent
On 2003/09/30 12:54, Mystress Angelique Serpent posted thus to the K-list:
At 12:59 PM 27/09/03, Goran Starcevic wrote:
> > > > Nope. You haven´t got the idea. I´m telling that if you
> > > > live for achive things instead for enjoying it, you are
> > losing the
> > > > point.
> > >
> > >So Jesus either totaly lost the point when he gave himself
> > on the cross
> > >or he did enjoy it very much. LOL
> >
> > Goran, it appears that you are arguing for the sake of arguing,
>
>I wouldn't agree it is so one-dimensional. For example, just look
>at the above statement derived from Elargonauto's logic. No one on
>this list seems to have any trouble with it -what does that tell
>you?
That they are hearing him and you are not.
You cannot know for sure whether Jesus enjoyed his experience, or what
he intended to accomplish. Whole churches have been divided arguing those
issues.
You presume to know "The Truth About Jesus", enough to use your
*beliefs* as a supposedly logical argument in a discussion about logic,
when logically you cannot know... and so your argument becomes irrelevant.
What do you think that tells the list members about you? ;) heh.
I could similarly dissect all of your "logical" arguments, but what for?
Rhetoric and logic are not the same thing, eh? The art of rhetoric is
not about truth, it is about framing things in a way to be persuasive, or
appear true. You are playing a rhetoric game... hiding behind it,
apparently for your own amusement, perhaps it makes you feel powerful...
whereas Elargonauto is dancing naked bravely sharing himself honestly. His
patience and comfort in a vulnerable position makes your logical dissection
appear rather self serving. He had far more patience than I... but it
would not serve his self esteem to continue to be your toy.
>I'd say it's a very interesting indication at least and you and
>Elargonauto call it 'going in circles' and 'going nowhere' -somehow
>it seems to me that either the both of you are not interested in
>going closer towards the truth or you haven't understand the
>discussion and are concluding based on that.
Whose truth?
> > rather
> > than trying to understand Elargonauto or express your own position
> > clearly.
>
>If you define not trying to understand Elargonauto as spending hours
>talking to him towards ultimate understanding of not only his
>statements but all their depth and consequences that follow out of
>them and trying to understand him as blindly accepting his internal
>logic in order to accept his claims then, indeed, I wasn't trying to
>understand him.
Walk a mile in his shoes, and you will understand better. You have
stated you do not want to... so, what then is your point? You want to
persuade him that he is wrong and you are correct? You cannot, he is
dedicated to following Divine Will, and does not worship logic.
>My position in this whole story on the level so extremely low as this
>is irrelevant -don't you think?
Doubtless it is relevant to you, or you would not have expended so much
energy in discussing it.
However, with regards to the spiritual unfolding process known as
Kundalini, and the insights gained thereof... the list topic... it is
irrelevant and somewhat out of place... except for you, if you are wanting
to understand.
> > Obviously you are enjoying it. What are you trying
> > to achieve?
>
>It isn't that I've come here to achieve something in particular.
If not achievement, then enjoyment? Your choices contradict your argument.
>I've come to get the feeling for/of this list, amuse myself,
enjoyment.
>test myself, maybe understand/hear the 'truth' of the others
You don't want to understand, obviously, and you apparently cannot
hear... so why tell yourself that you do? It is simple enough to engage
empathy and see through the eyes of another. A moment's thought experiment,
to try a new belief on for size and see how the world looks different. You
can always change it back if you don't like it.
You did try it, for a moment, and found the idea scary... but instead of
completing the experiment and riding out the fear to see what is on the
other side, as he suggested, you ran back to your comfort zone of safety in
logic, and went defensive, started trying to project/persuade him that your
fear based limits are truth.
>and
>myself on this list and maybe I needed attention of this form
That, is more likely true. Desire for list attention motivates newbies
more often than you would think. The shaktipat of K-list group attention
can be a rocketship to higher awareness. The "Shaktizap online" effect
mentioned in the list guidelines, tends to poke at the most prominent
karmic/spiritual issues in newbies and often makes them act out to get more
attention, or to try to project the issues onto the person whose energy
triggered them. They behave... illogically. :) but there is a pattern to it.
>-and it turns out I'm wearing Elargonauto (and you?) all the way
>to sleep :)
Probably a few others, too. Wanna take a poll? ;) heh.
The issues you are invested in, are your own inner stuff and you need to
resolve them with yourself instead of trying to using E, or anyone else as
a tool or receptacle... unless they accept the role of guru for you.
> > >Let me rephrase the question once again, LOL: "If the
> > direction of your
> > >mind (which doesn't need to be commissioned by the power of
> > anything and
> > >do it's duty as best as it can) commissioned by the power of your own
> > >will is bringing you to the place of your choosing how can
> > you call it
> > >'serious limitation of freedom'?!
This conversation has opposite perspectives, depending on your chakra
perspective and state of awakening.
Free will based magic or intention, "freedom" as you define it only
works if you are not awakened. For an awakened person, such focus on
attaining one's own desires tends to cause a negative feedback effect,
unless your will is in alignment with Divine will for you... the desired
alignment is the goal of K.
The feedback effect means Kundalites will end up feeling less free and
more stuck, the more they try to accomplish ego based goals. The more you
try to get your own way and resist, the more you will get illogical,
unpredictable synchronicities appearing to block your path in every
direction but the one Spirit wants you to go down.
The same thing occurs with non awakened people, but less awareness and
blinkers of ego make it slower and and apparent. They are not aware of the
reality-shifting effects of the coercion of spirit, and think all decisions
are their own, or that it is something external to themselves that is the
problem.
Focusing on your individual free will instead of surrendering to
guidance is resistance, and resisting K is a really bad, dangerous idea for
an awakened person.
In other words, for Elargonauto and I, it is safer to surrender to the
guidance of Divine Will that is communicated through the belly, than to try
to navigate with logic. To my own Self be true, and logic can go whistle.
The real irony, is that mental issues, thinking and logic are of the
power chakra, as well as the signals of karma/dharma that are the spiritual
navigation system. It is the chakra level issue you are at in your process,
apparently.
> > The mind of a Zen Master is silent, yet the actions of the Master
> > occur naturally, in perfection. No thinking or choosing required...
> > no mental
> > effort.
> > The part of the mind that has to think and choose, is
> > ego... inferior to
> > the larger, cosmic mind that simply *knows.* Much of the
> > "thinking" of the
> > average mind is simply karmic clutter, old programming on rewind. The
> > process of Kundalini clears out the clutter to get to the
> > unified, silent
> > place of Mastery... yet, it is not ego that masters, ego must
> > surrender.
>
>It seems you are suggesting that the freedom of ego driven mind or
>free will is an illusion
Yes... but to the unawakened, the illusory nature of the freedom is not
usually apparent.
>whereas the mind 'without' ego (consciousness
>of your own identity?) is truly free.
It experiences a greater freedom, but the key to the *sensation*
(bliss) is really a lack of options, only to follow the impulses of Divine
Will.
>Isn't the only difference between ego-free mind and ego-mind the absence
>of the qualities of ego?
No, not entirely. Ego may remain, but it is no longer in charge.
Actions do not stem from it, it's desires are not a motivating factor. It
is more like an entertaining monkey chattering away in a corner, rather
than the whole of personal identity. You can watch it display its antics,
without acting on them or identifying with them as your Self.
>If so, the qualities of ego give you the freedom of choice, freedom
>to do whatever you want in contrast to the ego-free mind which seems to
>be completely transparent and in synchronicity with the 'cosmic mind',
>or whatever it is you speak of and as such it has no freedom -it is but
>a mirror, reflection, it is completely devoted to the 'higher mind'.
Yes... exactly so, but it is of appearances.
Do you really have freedom of choice, or are you a puppet on Divine
strings that thinks itself independent? Not seeing the strings, you may
fancy yourself independent and choose to be blind to how the Divine
manipulates your decisions, how narrowly you are actually constrained. It
is part of the nature of ego, to be blind to the truth of your helplessness.
Can you *really* do anything you want??? I bet you can think of dozens,
if not thousands of things you cannot do.
If you were raised in a box and never saw outside of it, would you be
able to comprehend freedom? What feels like freedom to the ego-mind in its
box, looks like confinement and restriction, from a perspective outside of
the box.
The process of making decisions is considered the most stressful aspect
of day to day life, being human. It is navigation, finding your way.
Stressful to be worrying about making the correct choices, trying to guess
at what the results will be, and how others will react... dealing with the
consequences of wrong decisions.
It is very *freeing* to give the task of decision making, over to the
smarter, infinite part of your mind instead of trying to use the limited
part that is logic. It is very freeing to let go of worry and concern for
consequences, and enjoy the ride that is life. "Life is not meant to be a
struggle" (Stewart Wilde) if you are struggling, then you are off your
path. Going with the flow of divine will, carries you effortless. Thus,
"effort" = "illusion."
The ego freedom you describe, is like boasting that you are free to
walk in tight circles, and bang your head against the wall as often as you
like. The freedom Elargonauto speaks of, is an inner navigator that shows
where the doorways are. The freedom to experience being infinite, rather
than experiencing oneself as a grocery list of statistics (age, name,
occupation, marital status, etc.) confined to the limits of a physical body.
>That is not what Elargonauto is saying because he finds it imperative
>to not have a limitation of freedom, unless of course he thought of
>freedom as being completely devoted to something higher than yourself
>(which he will probably say now) ;>
That would be the general definition of freedom, on this list. This is
a kundalini list, the subject header says philosophical question. Surrender
is the imperative of Kundalini, and it leads to an experience of freedom
that is like nothing the ego mind can comprehend.
A wise teacher once explained to me how commitment is freedom. Once you
commit to something, you are free to pursue it with all attention, you are
no longer being pulled in many directions, distracted by other options. too
many open doors can be as paralyzing as none, if one cannot make a decision
to choose one and the committment to step through it.
>Just kidding, E. :) LOL
>
>If not, what makes the ego-free mind considered free?
??? Your wording makes no sense, so I'll respond to what you are asking
between the lines.
The ego has narrower boundaries. It experiences a fence between self and
not self, self and other. I can experience being anything, a tree, an
eagle, a star... and it takes no effort, I just focus on it and we
(illusion of) two become one. That is essence, the effortlessness of it, is
part of what identifies it as "real" or "true."
I can be Elargonauto, and know the meaning of what he says, I can be
you... but it is less enjoyable. Smaller box.
> > Trying to repress the ego noise is effort, and does not lead to
> > release. Allowing, surrendering is more effective. Focusing on the
> > body feelings instead of the mind chatter, is also effective... so
> > long as there
> > is not also a lot of effort to control the feelings.
>
>Why would anyone want to loose the consciousness (or illusion?) of his
>own identity (ego), besides wanting to see past the illusion of it?
Is that not reason enough?
> > NLP is excellent for doing this.
>
>What is NLP?
Neuro linguistic programming, like Tony Robbins offers on late-night
info-mercials. He did not invent it...
It is most often advertised a success method, for attaining free will
based material goals, but it also has some very effective methods for
altering ineffective beliefs, releasing phobias, reversing or altering
mental programming, and establishing good communication with your
unconscious mind... and with other people by learning to read cues they
give off unconsciously... body language, word phrasing, even the direction
the eyes move when considering an offer.
You could say that some of the work I do, is based on NLP techniques...
except many of them, I was inspired to do intuitively, long before I read
about NLP.
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