To: K-list
Recieved: 2003/09/22 01:21
Subject: RE: [K-list] Philosophical question
From: Goran Starcevic
On 2003/09/22 01:21, Goran Starcevic posted thus to the K-list:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: elargonauto [mailto:elargonauto AT_NOSPAM ya.com]
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 7:38 PM
> To: k-list; Goran Starcevic
> Subject: Re: [K-list] Philosophical question
> *I don't give instructions or advice for anything, I'm just
> *trying to discuss the nature of mind and no one but the two
> *of us seems to be interested in it :) Why would it be a
> failure *to use it as a tool for achieving goals if the goals
> are being *where you want to go and be instead of where you
> are now no mather *the 'forcing' needed?!
>
> Precesely all the logic of "spending an amount of energy
> to achive something" is a fake. If you don´t enjoy the trip
> you are not going anywhere.
So you're stating that the logic saying that if I spend an
amount of energy to lift up the stone from the ground I would
eventualy lift it is fake?
> > The mind doesn´t need to be directed, you don´t
> > need to be directed. Otherwise you are seriously limiting your
> > freedom.
>
> *If the direction of your mind is bringing you to
> *the place of your choosing how can you call it 'serious
> *limitation of freedom'?!
>
> Then you are not directing your mind. Then you are not
> limitng yourselve.
Let me rephrase the question: "If the direction of your mind
commisioned by the power of your own will is bringing you to
the place of your choosing how can you call it 'serious
limitation of freedom'?!"
> > Because you are going against yourself focusing your
> mind in a
> > way it doesn´t want naturally. Whenever you go against yourselve,
> > conflict is created and thus the whole system is damaged. i.e.
> > oxidation.
>
> *The process of evolution of life and concioussness uses
> energy *to ascend the old into new (which is most often
> better than *the old). It is not in any way 'natural' or
> 'unforcing' as you *think about it -it is actually going
> against our 'unforcing' *nature which just wants to relax
> itself and choose not act at *all -it is actually very
> unnatural and forcing so it comes out *it's totaly 'natural'
> for a mind to refuse or not want to *be in a different place
> -the more different the greater *the opposition. It's just a
> matter of what you decided *you want -if you want to change
> not only will the old *system get damaged -it will be
> completely destroyed.
>
> Are you trying to tell me that "lettting the mind goe
> freely" is artificial?
I didn't say anything about anything being or being not
artificial. What I'm saying is that "lettting the mind goe
freely" would be going down in the proces of evolution of life
and concioussness.
> > For example. I can be four days reading a book six
> hours a day
> > absolutely focused and concentrated. And I fell very well
> after that.
> > But if I tried to read this same book as a meaning to achive
> > concentration and focus I will be pissed of in five minutes
> and don´t
> > tell you the consequences after four days.Why? Because I´m
> obligating
> > myself to do something I don´t wan to do, without necesity.
>
> *If you can read the book absolutely focused and concentrated
> *without paying attention to concentration and focus at all
> *I'd say it's a bad material for the practise of the two if
> *you wanted it, and not only that -the 'pissed of thing' is
> *actualy the result of not having motivation to do it because
> *the necessity doesn't exist so it's a bad example.
>
> If I can read the book focused during four days it
> means that my mind is in harmony with my body. and the system
> works well.
> Where I can find motivation in doing something I don´t
> like and I´m not obligated to do? ( Answer. In lies or self-lies)
I said "...if you _wanted_ it..." (in case there was a book beyond
your understanding) and you're asking me for the motivation for
something you don't like and not being obligated to do? Answer:
In wanting or choosing. You could have simply deduced the answer
yourself had you allocated more focus to what I was writing -but
you didn't choose or want to.
> > It´s like you are telling to me that you are not enough
> > intelligent to do what you think is correct and so you need to do
> > another thing.
>
> *No, I actually haven't yet chosen anything different from
> where *I'm now.
>
> That´s good. :)
Like -its the first thing you agree with? :) LOL
> > *By what definition has thinking to do with your physical body
> > *excluding the brain? You can give me a concrete example if
> you *have
> > trouble explaining.
> >
> > Of course I can. I´m trying to resolve a problem and
> my leg is a
> > pain. Meeek! Imposible.
>
> *And how did you conclude that the pain in a leg means it's
> *impossible to solve the problem?
>
> You should admit is going to make it more dificult.
Maybe, but that doesn't make difficult equal impossible.
> > I have been all the day doing things and I´m trying to
> resolve a
> > dificult situation. I feel tired I can´t concentrate. Meeek! No way.
>
> *This is not thinking with your physical body -this is
> choosing *to rest with your mind not being able to think
> optimally because *it is tired and because the body can't
> support it optimally no *more.
>
> Everything that affects making a decision is related
> with thinking. The body is not giving you information for you
> to resolve this situation but is stoping you from doing so.
It affects making a decision and you should listen to it -why do you
have the need of labeling the 'listening of your body feedback' with
'thinking with your body' -it only makes things more complicated and
confused -what value do you see in that? Isn't it 'playing with
details'?
> > I´m thinking in accept or not a proposition. I have an ugly
> > feeling in my stomach who advice me not to do it. I don´t listen to
> > it. Meeek! You are in big trouble.
>
> *How can you know the stomach was saying it was a bad thing
> to *do and how do you know he's right?
>
> How do you know when you are hungry or thirsty, when
> you are in love or when you can´t be with one person in the
> same room? Because you feel it.
If you simply feel what is right and wrong why would you then
complicate and 'use your body' to think about accepting or not
a proposition anyway?
> > I have a problem with my girlfriend. I try hard and hard to
> > concentrate and I´m only going in circles. As much as I
> concentrate as
>
> > much my conclusions are stupid and squared. When I try to
> speak with
> > her she tells me that I don´t have heart, that I´m becoming as my
> > computer. Meek!. Another relationship to the bin.
>
> *This should be the example of not being able to think with your hart?
>
> In a relationship, brain ( reasoning) doesn´t worth
> too much. There a lot of things in play, and lot of them
> doesn´t have to be very coherent. If you don´t let your
> sensations and feelings guide you, you are only going to fake it.
Or not have it.
> > I´m a genious and I´m at the end of my theory. There
> is a last
> > concept. A last thing to finish it. But I feel nervous and stressed
> > and can´t relax. I can´t get out of this. I can´t find the
> solution.
> > Meeek! Your body is palying you another bad joke.
>
> *This one is the same as the second example.
>
>
> Well more or less it is. But has little more thing.
> When you "force" your mind and your body to do things as
> "focus" or "concentrate" you go on storing tension and once
> your each a moment you get stucked. Your strategy thinking is
> leser and you start going in circles. Einstein knew something
> about it.
My practical experience seems to show otherwise -namely, I was
circling my whole life and now that I've 'focused', I've stopped.
I don't go in no particular direction but I've stopped circling and
believing I'm going somewhere, which I find better.
> > You can take as an example our own society. You are being
> > manipulated since you are a child. Of course, people around
> you just
> > try to do their best, they are manipulated so they inocently
> > manipulate you.
> >
> > -- You should do exercise to be healthy ...
> everybody believes
> > it. Why? If everybody thinks is all right why shouldn´t be
> it?So you
> > try and try and try ... and your body tells all the time
> stop! stop!
> > stop!
> >
> > You can be convinced that exercise is good, that giving
> > discipline to your body is good, but your body is gonna
> shout you to
> > stop until you are dead. The body tells the truth, all the
> time. The
> > mind is what is wrong. The mind is what crossed to reality.
>
> *And you concluded that the mind is easier to manipulate than
> *the other organs because you see it easier for the society
> to *convince you in something in a decade than it is to your
> self *to convince your body to go exercising in 1 minute?
>
> What they do is convince you that you have to
> convince your body. When your body doesn´t have to be
> convinced of anything. It knows perfectly well what has to be done.
Yes it does.
It takes a a decade for the society to convince your mind and you
say that mind is easier to be convinced then the body and then you
say that your body doesn't need to be convinced at all.
That's very inconsistent.
>
> *The problem in your logic is the fact that you equaled the
> *short term resistance to the manipulation of your body with
> *the resistance to manipulation. If you compare the long term
> *small intensity resistance your brain was protruding to the
> *short term high intensity resistance of your body you can
> *easly see that it was brain that gave more resistance and
> *took more energy to be beaten.
>
>
> I think you are trying to tell that the brain have
> a lower resistence intensity in a long term and the body high
> resistance intensity in a short term. So they are the same.
It's like saying 50 hours of chill-out music and 10 seconds of
techno are the same -well, think what you want ;)
> I think that´s not correct. I can convince you that
> agresivity is needed for having a good life, that discipline
> is what is need when you are going through a dificult time or
> that life is a long and ardous effort. ( All of them a lie,
> of course).
It's only that you haven't included 10 years the society has
already invested to make you a dumb ass not capable of thinking
for himself (although the truth of convictions is arbitrary).
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