To: K-list
Recieved: 2003/09/21 17:37
Subject: Re: [K-list] Philosophical question
From: elargonauto
On 2003/09/21 17:37, elargonauto posted thus to the K-list:
> You use your mind as it was a tool. You use it to achieve goals.
> That´s the failure in all you argument. You are explaining me how you
> can transform yourself in a "homo mechanicus".
*I don't give instructions or advice for anything, I'm just
*trying to discuss the nature of mind and no one but the two
*of us seems to be interested in it :) Why would it be a failure
*to use it as a tool for achieving goals if the goals are being
*where you want to go and be instead of where you are now no mather
*the 'forcing' needed?!
Precesely all the logic of "spending an amount of energy to achive
something" is a fake. If you don´t enjoy the trip you are not going
anywhere.
> The mind doesn´t need to be directed, you don´t
> need to be directed. Otherwise you are seriously limiting your
> freedom.
*If the direction of your mind is bringing you to
*the place of your choosing how can you call it 'serious
*limitation of freedom'?!
Then you are not directing your mind. Then you are not limitng
yourselve.
> I´m explaining how you can be in harmony with
> your mind, so you achive the goals that you really want and desire in
> the botom of your heart. Not, what you have been told or educated to
> do.
*No one said anything about doing things you are told or being
*'educated to do' unless they are what you really want.
If your mind is not free, you are going to be caught up in the film "of
doing what is supposed to be right". You are not going to be able to
trascend it, and make your own path, independently of what you have been
taught.
> Because you are going against yourself focusing your mind in a
> way it doesn´t want naturally. Whenever you go against yourselve,
> conflict is created and thus the whole system is damaged. i.e.
> oxidation.
*The process of evolution of life and concioussness uses energy
*to ascend the old into new (which is most often better than
*the old). It is not in any way 'natural' or 'unforcing' as you
*think about it -it is actually going against our 'unforcing'
*nature which just wants to relax itself and choose not act at
*all -it is actually very unnatural and forcing so it comes out
*it's totaly 'natural' for a mind to refuse or not want to
*be in a different place -the more different the greater
*the opposition. It's just a matter of what you decided
*you want -if you want to change not only will the old
*system get damaged -it will be completely destroyed.
Are you trying to tell me that "lettting the mind goe freely" is
artificial?
>
> For example. I can be four days reading a book six hours a day
> absolutely focused and concentrated. And I fell very well after that.
> But if I tried to read this same book as a meaning to achive
> concentration and focus I will be pissed of in five minutes and don´t
> tell you the consequences after four days.Why? Because I´m obligating
> myself to do something I don´t wan to do, without necesity.
*If you can read the book absolutely focused and concentrated
*without paying attention to concentration and focus at all
*I'd say it's a bad material for the practise of the two if
*you wanted it, and not only that -the 'pissed of thing' is
*actualy the result of not having motivation to do it because
*the necessity doesn't exist so it's a bad example.
If I can read the book focused during four days it means that my mind
is in harmony with my body. and the system works well.
Where I can find motivation in doing something I don´t like and I´m
not obligated to do? ( Answer. In lies or self-lies)
> It´s like you are telling to me that you are not enough
> intelligent to do what you think is correct and so you need to do
> another thing.
*No, I actually haven't yet chosen anything different from where
*I'm now.
That´s good. :)
> -- The phrase should say ...
>
> You should "focus" instead in focus the mind and concentrate the
> mind, two particular things. In the whole system.
>
> Again, the same. Don´t loose in details, get the general
> picture. Small mind plays with details, great mind take a flight a see
> all the scene with perspective.
*Thank you for the warning but how do you know I'm loosing in
*details? How do you know I didn't 'took a flight' towards
*the details from viewing the whole scene?
That wouldn´t have sense. At least in what we are tolking about
"harmony of the body". Once you get a clear picture, details are not
important anymore.
> *By what definition has thinking to do with your physical body
> *excluding the brain? You can give me a concrete example if you *have
> trouble explaining.
>
> Of course I can. I´m trying to resolve a problem and my leg is a
> pain. Meeek! Imposible.
*And how did you conclude that the pain in a leg means it's
*impossible to solve the problem?
You should admit is going to make it more dificult.
>
> I have been all the day doing things and I´m trying to resolve a
> dificult situation. I feel tired I can´t concentrate. Meeek! No way.
*This is not thinking with your physical body -this is choosing
*to rest with your mind not being able to think optimally because
*it is tired and because the body can't support it optimally no
*more.
Everything that affects making a decision is related with thinking.
The body is not giving you information for you to resolve this situation but
is stoping you from doing so.
>
> I´m thinking in accept or not a proposition. I have an ugly
> feeling in my stomach who advice me not to do it. I don´t listen to
> it. Meeek! You are in big trouble.
*How can you know the stomach was saying it was a bad thing to
*do and how do you know he's right?
How do you know when you are hungry or thirsty, when you are in love
or when you can´t be with one person in the same room? Because you feel it.
>
> I have a problem with my girlfriend. I try hard and hard to
> concentrate and I´m only going in circles. As much as I concentrate as
> much my conclusions are stupid and squared. When I try to speak with
> her she tells me that I don´t have heart, that I´m becoming as my
> computer. Meek!. Another relationship to the bin.
*This should be the example of not being able to think with your hart?
In a relationship, brain ( reasoning) doesn´t worth too much. There
a lot of things in play, and lot of them doesn´t have to be very coherent.
If you don´t let your sensations and feelings guide you, you are only going
to fake it.
>
> I´m a genious and I´m at the end of my theory. There is a last
> concept. A last thing to finish it. But I feel nervous and stressed
> and can´t relax. I can´t get out of this. I can´t find the solution.
> Meeek! Your body is palying you another bad joke.
*This one is the same as the second example.
Well more or less it is. But has little more thing. When you
"force" your mind and your body to do things as "focus" or "concentrate" you
go on storing tension and once your each a moment you get stucked. Your
strategy thinking is leser and you start going in circles. Einstein knew
something about it.
> You can take as an example our own society. You are being
> manipulated since you are a child. Of course, people around you just
> try to do their best, they are manipulated so they inocently
> manipulate you.
>
> -- You should do exercise to be healthy ... everybody believes
> it. Why? If everybody thinks is all right why shouldn´t be it?So you
> try and try and try ... and your body tells all the time stop! stop!
> stop!
>
> You can be convinced that exercise is good, that giving
> discipline to your body is good, but your body is gonna shout you to
> stop until you are dead. The body tells the truth, all the time. The
> mind is what is wrong. The mind is what crossed to reality.
*And you concluded that the mind is easier to manipulate than
*the other organs because you see it easier for the society to
*convince you in something in a decade than it is to your self
*to convince your body to go exercising in 1 minute?
What they do is convince you that you have to convince your body.
When your body doesn´t have to be convinced of anything. It knows perfectly
well what has to be done.
*The problem in your logic is the fact that you equaled the
*short term resistance to the manipulation of your body with
*the resistance to manipulation. If you compare the long term
*small intensity resistance your brain was protruding to the
*short term high intensity resistance of your body you can
*easly see that it was brain that gave more resistance and
*took more energy to be beaten.
I think you are trying to tell that the brain have a lower
resistence intensity in a long term and the body high resistance intensity
in a short term. So they are the same.
I think that´s not correct. I can convince you that agresivity is
needed for having a good life, that discipline is what is need when you are
going through a dificult time or that life is a long and ardous effort. (
All of them a lie, of course). But your body send you negative signals
whenever you are full of anger and you´ll feel unconfortable, your body will
ask you for some peace and tranquility when you try to "discipline" it or
everyday you´ll feel awuful of the lot of things you "have" to do to
"continue carrying the world on your shoulders".
And so this truthfull part of yourselve can help you keep being
you, your real you and don´t become a sub-product of this society.
Chao!
elargonauto.
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