To: K-list
Recieved: 2003/09/20 21:12
Subject: RE: [K-list] Philosophical question
From: Goran Starcevic
On 2003/09/20 21:12, Goran Starcevic posted thus to the K-list:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: elargonauto [mailto:elargonauto AT_NOSPAM ya.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 8:49 PM
> To: k-list; Goran Starcevic
> Subject: [K-list] Philosophical question
> If you can´t visualize where are the roots and where are the branches,
> the you are lost before starting.
It depends on what I'm starting ;)
> > If you concentrate in "concentration" ( :) ) you
> are losing
> > the picture.
>
> *You're saying that if I, say, brought my mind in a state of *focus
> and concentratation before placing it's attention to an *object I
> would get an inferior 'picture' to the one I would *get if I only
> placed my attention to an object?!
>
> Nope. I´m saying that you are losing yourself in details.
I misinterpreted the meaning of the 'picture'. :) Thank you for
explaining it.
>
> > If you make exercises for concentration
> > and focus what you are actually doing is "forcing" the mind to do
> > things she doesn´t want to do.
>
> *It depends on what you focus onto and on your mind itself. I *belive
> the closer the quality of the object you're focusing *on is to the
> quality of your mind the less energy and forcing *is needed...
>
> You use your mind as it was a tool. You use it to achieve goals.
> That´s the failure in all you argument. You are explaining me how you
> can transform yourself in a "homo mechanicus".
I don't give instructions or advice for anything, I'm just
trying to discuss the nature of mind and no one but the two
of us seems to be interested in it :) Why would it be a failure
to use it as a tool for achieving goals if the goals are being
where you want to go and be instead of where you are now no mather
the 'forcing' needed?!
> The mind doesn´t need to be directed, you don´t
> need to be directed. Otherwise you are seriously limiting your
> freedom.
If the direction of your mind is bringing you to
the place of your choosing how can you call it 'serious
limitation of freedom'?!
> I´m explaining how you can be in harmony with
> your mind, so you achive the goals that you really want and desire in
> the botom of your heart. Not, what you have been told or educated to
> do.
No one said anything about doing things you are told or being
'educated to do' unless they are what you really want.
> > So you are losing
> > sensitivy wih it, the mind loses smoothness and the whole system is
> > affected. Any "manipulation" only leads to oxidation.
>
> *...so if you look at this thought of yours from that perspective *it
> comes out that loosing 'smoothness' is natural if you focus *on a
> different quality. The more considerable the difference in *quality
> between the object you're focusing to and that of your own *mind the
> greater loss in sharpness will occur. If you want to *change the
> quality of the mind to one direction or to the other *you
> can't escape "manipulating" it -why do you think the only
> *result of manipulation would be 'oxidation' as one the only
> *possible direction?!
>
> Because you are going against yourself focusing your mind in a
> way it doesn´t want naturally. Whenever you go against yourselve,
> conflict is created and thus the whole system is damaged. i.e.
> oxidation.
The process of evolution of life and concioussness uses energy
to ascend the old into new (which is most often better than
the old). It is not in any way 'natural' or 'unforcing' as you
think about it -it is actually going against our 'unforcing'
nature which just wants to relax itself and choose not act at
all -it is actually very unnatural and forcing so it comes out
it's totaly 'natural' for a mind to refuse or not want to
be in a different place -the more different the greater
the opposition. It's just a matter of what you decided
you want -if you want to change not only will the old
system get damaged -it will be completely destroyed.
>
> For example. I can be four days reading a book six hours a day
> absolutely focused and concentrated. And I fell very well after that.
> But if I tried to read this same book as a meaning to achive
> concentration and focus I will be pissed of in five minutes and don´t
> tell you the consequences after four days.Why? Because I´m obligating
> myself to do something I don´t wan to do, without necesity.
If you can read the book absolutely focused and concentrated
without paying attention to concentration and focus at all
I'd say it's a bad material for the practise of the two if
you wanted it, and not only that -the 'pissed of thing' is
actualy the result of not having motivation to do it because
the necessity doesn't exist so it's a bad example.
> It´s like you are telling to me that you are not enough
> intelligent to do what you think is correct and so you need to do
> another thing.
No, I actually haven't yet chosen anything different from where
I'm now.
> -- The phrase should say ...
>
> You should "focus" instead in focus the mind and concentrate the
> mind, two particular things. In the whole system.
>
> Again, the same. Don´t loose in details, get the general
> picture. Small mind plays with details, great mind take a flight a see
> all the scene with perspective.
Thank you for the warning but how do you know I'm loosing in
details? How do you know I didn't 'took a flight' towards
the details from viewing the whole scene?
> *By what definition has thinking to do with your physical body
> *excluding the brain? You can give me a concrete example if you *have
> trouble explaining.
>
> Of course I can. I´m trying to resolve a problem and my leg is a
> pain. Meeek! Imposible.
And how did you conclude that the pain in a leg means it's
impossible to solve the problem?
>
> I have been all the day doing things and I´m trying to resolve a
> dificult situation. I feel tired I can´t concentrate. Meeek! No way.
This is not thinking with your physical body -this is choosing
to rest with your mind not being able to think optimally because
it is tired and because the body can't support it optimally no
more.
>
> I´m thinking in accept or not a proposition. I have an ugly
> feeling in my stomach who advice me not to do it. I don´t listen to
> it. Meeek! You are in big trouble.
How can you know the stomach was saying it was a bad thing to
do and how do you know he's right?
>
> I have a problem with my girlfriend. I try hard and hard to
> concentrate and I´m only going in circles. As much as I concentrate as
> much my conclusions are stupid and squared. When I try to speak with
> her she tells me that I don´t have heart, that I´m becoming as my
> computer. Meek!. Another relationship to the bin.
This should be the example of not being able to think with your hart?
>
> I´m a genious and I´m at the end of my theory. There is a last
> concept. A last thing to finish it. But I feel nervous and stressed
> and can´t relax. I can´t get out of this. I can´t find the solution.
> Meeek! Your body is palying you another bad joke.
This one is the same as the second example.
> *What logic did you use and how did you conclude that brain is *easier
> to be manipulated than the other organs? Notice that *you said that
> manipulating the mind is forcing -do you equate *the two?
>
> - Manipulation is the art of convincing other people of doing
> something they don´t want to do ( and you want them to do).
>
> - Forcing the mind is just an act of self-destruction. :).
If you go in that direction, yes, to be more precise.
> You can take as an example our own society. You are being
> manipulated since you are a child. Of course, people around you just
> try to do their best, they are manipulated so they inocently
> manipulate you.
>
> -- You should do exercise to be healthy ... everybody believes
> it. Why? If everybody thinks is all right why shouldn´t be it?So you
> try and try and try ... and your body tells all the time stop! stop!
> stop!
>
> You can be convinced that exercise is good, that giving
> discipline to your body is good, but your body is gonna shout you to
> stop until you are dead. The body tells the truth, all the time. The
> mind is what is wrong. The mind is what crossed to reality.
And you concluded that the mind is easier to manipulate than
the other organs because you see it easier for the society to
convince you in something in a decade than it is to your self
to convince your body to go exercising in 1 minute?
The problem in your logic is the fact that you equaled the
short term resistance to the manipulation of your body with
the resistance to manipulation. If you compare the long term
small intensity resistance your brain was protruding to the
short term high intensity resistance of your body you can
easly see that it was brain that gave more resistance and
took more energy to be beaten.
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