To: K-list
Recieved: 2003/04/17 19:29
Subject: Re: [K-list] All manifestation from within God proceeds
From: Danijel Turina
On 2003/04/17 19:29, Danijel Turina posted thus to the K-list:
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At 20:49 16.4.2003 +0530, rkshankar wrote:
>
>
>> that Jesus, being all-knowing, must have been able to write in
>> Pascal, too I don't think that even God knows what will come out
>> of things, in the
>end. .
>God manifests everything from within. He knows all.
>Jesus is the first-born of God.
>All manifestation must necessarily pass first through Jesus.
>And, Jesus pervades all creation.
>Undoubtedly, Pascal manifested from within God through Jesus
This is a very, very problematic statement, and I can actually quote
Jesus to disprove it. For instance Mathew 22:21, where Jesus
specifically renounced claim to the worldly things ("Give the Emperor
what is emperor's, and to God what is God's")
Also, Matthew 24:36, where Jesus explicitly said that about some
things, only Father knows, not even the Son.
Also, Matthew 26:39-42, where he prayed to God in anguish, fearing
what was to come. This shows his human nature.
Also, Matthew 4:1-11, where the devil tested Jesus. The fact, that
the test was real, and that devil thought he had a chance, means that
Jesus is not perfect in powers or knowledge, but in devotion to God.
And finallly, Jesus himself said that there will come those, who will
do even greater things than him, for he goes to his Father (John
14:12). This shows clearly that God is the power in Jesus, where
Jesus is the vessel of power. The vessels are many, but the Power is
but one.
So, the conclusion is that the fact that Jesus was perfect in some
acpects does not mean that he was perfect in all aspects, for that
would be in contradiction with his nature of a physical human being
who could, in fact, be beaten up and murdered.
You make a rather common mistake, thinking that enlightened people
must be omnipotent, omniscient and perfect in all other respects.
However, that is not so. This kind of perfection would utterly negate
the existence of the physical plane, were it manifested upon it. This
logically follows. Therefore, the Divine incarnations and the
enlightened saints are perfect only in a certain sense - their spirit
is perfectly of God. They are perfectly devoted to God. They show the
others what God is like, by their own personal example. However, even
Jesus was so much a man, that most of his contemporaries doubted his
Divine nature. Most saw him only as a carpenter's son. Most spat at
him while he carried his cross, yelling "why don't you save yourself,
if you're the son of God?". They could see his physical limitations,
but they couldn't see his limitless spirit.
This belief in the utter perfection of the saints leads many people
to disappointmet when they realize that a certain great teacher has a
human aspect. Because of that belief, you probably wouldn't recognize
Jesus even if you saw him. He would appear too ordinary to you.
>Eucharistic miracles occurring in USA and
>some Asian countries even in this modern age
>bear witness to the all-pervading nature and Power of Jesus
Yes, and the miracles also occur wherever people surrender to God.
>> In fact, the very things_nobody_ could think of, did happen.
>>.Nobody predicted anything with accuracy.
>> the future is all planned, I think it's totally uncertain, open
>> and full
>of surprises.
>All these statements apply only to mortals like us.
Think about this: if God created a deterministic world, what good
would it be to Him? It would be as if He never created it, for it
would be completely predictable and predicted, and would serve no
purpose whatsoever. Having no purpose, all the bad things that happen
in such a world could be attributed to God's intent, and God could be
with full justification called cruel and evil. Since this is
contradictory to the definition of God, the world must be
indeterministic in nature, QED.
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