To: K-list
Recieved: 2003/04/16 08:40
Subject: Re: [K-list] re: evil
From: Danijel Turina
On 2003/04/16 08:40, Danijel Turina posted thus to the K-list:
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At 15:35 15.4.2003 -0600, hbrost wrote:
>>We, as human beings, cannot
>>"create" more than what already exists.
>
>I would very much doubt that my laptop existed before a human
>"created" it. :)
>
>Hety: Well, I will have to differ with you. What is the laptop
>made of?
It is a concrete form that resulted from several decades of advances
in engineering.
>First, an idea. Then take it from there...what already exists in
>and on this Earthly plane. And from where does thought come? ;-)
>I believe that all thoughts already exist. Just given a different
>"spin?"
I once had an argument with someone who tried to convince me of the
same thing. I replied that I don't believe that Jesus could program
in Pascal better than I can. Even in such an obvious example, he
didn't agree with me, and argued that all the things existed since
forever in an abstract and unmanifested form, and that Jesus, being
all-knowing, must have been able to write in Pascal, too. I laughed.
:)
For you see, I don't think that even God knows what will come out of
things, in the end. I think that the entire point of Creation is
surprise, not foreknowledge. The laptop I write this on is a surprise
- - even 50 years ago, nobody could have predicted it, and in fact,
nobody has - not in this form, anyway. 50 years ago, nobody could
predict the boom of the mobile phones, nobody could have known that
today, at least in Croatia, probably 90% of kids in schools will have
GSM devices and that they will constantly send the SMS messages. They
predicted the flying cars, intelligent computers, flight to Mars
etc., but those things never happened. In fact, the very things
_nobody_ could think of, did happen. Even Gentry Lee, from the JPL,
whose engineers invented most of the technology we use today, could
not predict the future of technology even one decade ahead. I've read
lots of good science fiction, so I know. Nobody predicted anything
with accuracy. So, I really don't think that the future is all
planned, I think it's totally uncertain, open and full of surprises.
>>second-by-second basis. But choose to focus on them,
>>well...doesn't that take your energy away from Love, as Jason
>>points out?
>
>>If you observe evil and you help, did it take your energy away from
>>love, or did you manifest love? If you ignore evil and fail to
>>help, did you in fact love, or did you manifest indifference?
>
>Hety: That's not the point of what I questioned.
That is exactly the point of what you questioned; however, you seem
not to like it. :) In order to solve a problem, one must first
observe its existence. If you ignore to see the hungry people, you
sure aren't going to do anything to feed them, are you? If you don't
observe a husband beating up his wife every day, you sure aren't
going to help her, are you?
>>>And what you need to hide from, rules you.
>>
>>Hety: No, not necessarily. Doubt Jason is hiding from anything.
>>Was Jesus hiding from what was "ruling" Him? He was a human being.
>
>>I don't see where Jesus negated the existence of evil. In fact, I
>>can remember at least 20 places where he attacked it bitterly.
>
>Hety: That's not the point. Jesus certainly did _not_ negate evil
Why, then, did you use the example of Jesus, when it serves to
illustrate my point, and not yours?
>, but
>then we would need to interpret the interpretations of the
>interpretations of what Jesus really did or did not do.
Ah, "the damn church made it all up and faked the real thing"
theory... not again... :)
>I asked if Jesus was hiding from
>what was "ruling" him, as you alluded to in your previous post to
>Lori.
Yes, you asked, but I really don't know why, since it is completely
non sequitur, for Jesus did not negate the existence of evil, he did
not recommend ignoring it, or pretending that it doesn't exist. He
said that it exists and that one should avoid it, just as I do. Why
then would you use Jesus in an argument, is a complete mystery to me.
:)
>>From what I know in my heart, I say it clearly: I doubt Jesus was
>>hiding
>from evil. Or as you stated previously, what could have been
>"ruling" him.
>
>>If people were more noble and
>>Divine, they would not let the spiritual midgets such as Saddam or
>>Bush order them around, they would elect some spiritual lighthouse
>>for a leader, as they do in Vatican
>>________________________
>>
>>Hety: Ahemmmmm.....the VATICAN? ...... Just checking!
>
>Yup, Vatican. They do elect the Pope, you know, and he is the head
>of state. A very important state.
>
>Hety: Again...THE VATICAN? ;-)
What do you, exactly, object Vatican? Name a state with higher
spiritual and moral standards and less crime per capita. Name a state
with better social care. Name a state with less poor and homeless
people. Name a state with a more respectable leadership.
>>While I stated that All Things exist, isn't it possible that this
>>thing we call the Ego is trying to triumph over God/dess and
>>attempting to reign supreme?
>
>In some cases, yes. In other cases, ego might explore ways in which
>to love God.
>
>Hety: How? When?
Yogananda, Vivekananda, Lahiri Mahasaya, Yuktesvar, Jesus, Milarepa,
Caitanya, Sankaracarya, Ramanuja, St. Theresa of Avilla, St. John of
the Cross, all the angels of the higher planes of existence...
What do you think, that they were without ego? They all had it, but
theirs was satcitanandamaya, made of the Divine qualities.
>>I believe, Danijel, that the devil is us! ;-)
>
>Naah, not me, didn't get promoted yet. :)
>
>Hety: You're tough! ;-)
:))
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