To: K-list
Recieved: 2003/03/12 02:22
Subject: Re: [K-list] This comes to mind (again), for Anqelique
From: Dean Robbins
On 2003/03/12 02:22, Dean Robbins posted thus to the K-list:
Hi Anqelique,
Is Anqelique your real name?
'Tis a nice name - Apologies
for the late reply
to your post. I am, like
yourself, aware that time is
precious, and that when
we need it
most, we do not always have it
at our disposal. Thank you for
your time and
energy to respond to my
previous post. It is genuinely
appreciated. I would
not expect your immediate
reply to this post either. You
may or may not want
to reply to this post, but
that would be your choice. As
I'm a newbie here, I
hope this post is not too
long. If it is, then I
apologise in advance. - May
we continue from our last
discussion:
At 02:36 PM 18/02/03, Dean
Robbins wrote:
>Dear Anqelique,
>>Gosh! How did I get myself
into such a deep discussion in
such a short
>>time on this list. Forgive
my presumption, but is this a
test? (-:
>LOL!! No, not at all.. Nor a
challenge or a competition.
Just a
>discussion! :) It is a
discussion list, we discuss
things. No discussion,
>if we always agree!
>I am intrigued by your
perspective. Enjoying your
posts, wanting to
>communicate, get to know you
better.
Thank you. I would like to get
to know you better too. (-:
Let the K flow..
> >I did not imply that the
women were competing out of
suffering, I was
> >implying that their
competing with each other was
responsible for their
> >suffering.
>OK. Thanks for clarifying.
>I wonder what makes you think
they are suffering? I got the
impression,
>from Felix's description,
that they were having fun.
Amusing themselves and
>each other.
Without them knowing it, it is
suffering that makes them have
their fun. Imo,
If it weren't for worldly
entertainment, such as, drugs,
sex, booze, games,
jokes, etc.I'm sure most of
the "worldly" types would be
depressives or
would've topped themselves by
now. Most people get restless
if they are left
alone for too long.
"Something" scares them. What
is it? Is it loneliness?
Are they afraid they may see
something inside themselves
that they don't want
to look at, to think or feel
about? Perhaps old memories
resurface to remind
them of past pain and
suffering. - At least they can
escape their problems,
misery or pain through the
gloss and the glamour of the
world. No ones to
blame, it's just the way
things are. Things are not
always as they appear.
The ego uses a painted mask to
cover up suffering. It's all
about keeping up
appearances.
>Have you known any exotic
dancers, personally?
No, not publicly nor
personally. However, many
years ago, an ex-girlfriend
loved to dance erotically for
me and.(Whoa Dean, Stop!) {-:
>They compete, but they also
share and take care of each
other, like sisters
I once watched a football game
(not for entertainment but for
educational
purposes). Here were a bunch
of grown men competing with
each other. During
the game it got personal. Some
players picked fights with the
other team
players because of foul play.
And at the end of the game I
watched several
men on the losing team cry
their hearts out because they
lost the game, or
was it because they didn't
win, whichever. So, if games
are about having
fun.Why the crying? So where
in this situation did the
winning team share
their joy and care for the
losing team?
> >If there is a winner, then
there will have to be a loser,
and the loser
will suffer.
>There is such a thing as
losing gracefully... :)
Of course, But the graceful
loser also has the power of
grace on their side.
For those who do not feel the
presence of grace; they are
the ones that will
suffer for their loss.
>Loss and suffering is an ego
judgment,.
Yes! I agree, as iterated
previously, ego belongs to
duality.
>.move beyond it and loss
makes way for new growth and
>abundance. Death leads to
rebirth. Destruction makes way
for creation,
>necessity the mother of
invention.
Yes! And ever forward, let our
march be toward God/dess. And
moving forward
we will eventually relinquish
ourselves from "death and
rebirth" to a state
of deathlessness. - It must be
such a glorious ineffable
state of existence.
Just think, Jesus even gave up
his life to prove this point,
as signified by
his crucifixion and
resurrection. He wanted us to
release ourselves from this
curse called death (and life
inflicted with suffering) to
be reborn to that
"deathless" state. It was the
same with the Buddha, and all
the saints and
sages throughout history. Even
Ramana Maharshi spoke of this
deathless state,
he said: "Our glory lies where
we cease to exist"
>There is such a thing as
win/win. The women learn from
each other,
>which will advance their
careers, in the long run. They
can take what they
>learn to improve shows at
other strip bars, and so
increase their income.
>I have had a lot of
commission sales jobs, and
there was always
>competitions. The purpose of
competitions was to motivate
the salespeople.
Personally, I have never been
motivated by competition, and
I'm a CAD manager
for a successful company. The
job position just fell into my
lap. I never
asked for it. Actually, I was
reluctant to take it. It was
my boss that made
the decision that I was to do
it. Most people I work with
don't compete with
me, or challenge my ideas, my
knowledge and authority on how
I think things
should be done. Occasionally,
some of the younger staff will
patronize me
just so that they can look
good in the eyes of others.
But I have a different
outlook. I usually tell myself
that I was once like them.
This diffuses my
anger reaction in a split
second. It's a question of
priorities. My first
priority is that I go to work
to make a living, and while
I'm at work, it is
my intention to maintain a
happy working atmosphere, and
that everyone under
my managerial control has all
their needs met to complete
their work
efficiently. It's all about
co-operating. My own staff
appreciate this and
when they have work related
problems, I help take the
mental pressure off
them, but only because I have
the experience to do so. I
find my job very
rewarding, especially if it
benefits my colleagues and
myself.
>.The winners got a prize, but
they also had to give a talk
sharing their
>success secrets. The
competition inspired
creativity and invention, and
>also became a forum for
sharing secrets of success,
for growth of the
>whole. I seldom won these
competitions, by the numbers
but I won through
>the motivation and growth,
learning experience.
>The only losers where those
who decided they were losers,
and chose to
>be hurt.
But was it done selflessly? Or
was the "give to get" paradigm
at work here?
Were there any secret agenda's
or ulterior motives? The ego
can be very
shrewd indeed, especially at
"winning" in
self-advancement. -- Would the
winner that won his prize,
give thanks to the loser? If
it weren't for the
losers, the winners would've
never won.
(Snip)
> >> All the competitions in
the world, from Olympics to
little league to
poker games... all suffering?
>>Only if there are losers.
The world is a place of
duality. You can't have
one without the other.
>Um.. I think you can. It is a
matter of perspective.
>There is such a thing as
win/win, in fact I would say
that a non dual
perspective would
>involve finding the win in
"losing" situations. Locating
the win, within...
>the silver lining. Suffering
is a personal choice,
optional. If the world
>deals you a lemon, cry or
make lemonade... ;)
Yes, it is a matter of
perspective - a non-dual
perspective can be won in a
losing situation. For
instance, realising that
losing is not important, makes
for a winning attitude.
>Similarly with rejection... I
suffered a lot of rejection in
my life,
>till one day I realised that
the rejections were a gift.
They kept me
>moving to find the place
where I belonged. I still get
rejection, but I see
>it as part of a divine
navigation system. In duality,
there is linearity,
>movement, towards and away
from.
My heart feels for you. I too
have suffered in my own way,
and I respect your
point of view.
I think that suffering can
only be a gift when something
is learnt from it.
>> So male; female, winners;
losers, rich or poor, life and
death, etc, it
>> all part of duality. But If
I am to move into the Light
where there is no
>> duality, where all is One,
then I must let go of the
world and its ways
> >and embrace the Love of
God/dess. -- I am gradually
beginning to
> >understand how important
this is, because this is how I
am deepening the
>>presence of kundalini Shakti
in my own life.
>I understand.. I agree it is
important... but in my
experience, it is
>not the final goal. what goes
up must come down. Is it not
part of that
>journey, to see Divine
perfection in duality?
Yes, of course. To see divine
perfection in duality would
require the "eye"
of non-duality to see it.
>My experience is that it
comes round, from escaping the
world into
>non-duality, to returning to
the world and embracing the
dualities while
>still seeing Goddess in All.
The Lord Jesus Christ and the
Lord Buddha demonstrated this
by being in the
world (but not of it) -Amen!
>Non-duality gives
perspective, which provides a
release from suffering, but
>without suffering, we cannot
appreciate bliss.
But is not non-dual awareness
beyond suffering and bliss?
(snip)
>Finding silver linings, which
I interpret as the hidden
Divine Will in all
>events. Part of the wheel,
life eats life, death leads to
rebirth, shit
>makes the flowers grow.
This is purely a hypothetical
question on my part, but, what
if life did not
eat life, and shit did not
feed the flowers - The Spirit
is "Cause" all else
is "effect". At the source,
none of the effects affect the
Cause. My silver
lining (or glimmer of hope in
misfortune) lies at the centre
of my being, my
heart, so to speak. I have no
faith in that which is
transient.
>Even here, on the list... the
troll got the old list
deleted, but out
>of that came this new list,
spam free and I think, a
better system.
>Destruction and creation are
intertwined. Goddess acted
through the vessel
>of a troll and Yahoo to
motivate the creation of a new
K-list cyber temple.
>I had been wanting to move
the list away from yahoo, for
quite a while,
>getting tired of yahoo spam
...
>but nobody else did. They did
not want the effort, there was
complacency.
Inertia.
Yes! Complacency and inertia;
that's what keeps people bound
to Samsara. No
doubt Mara has a good old
gloat over people's
complacency and inertia. it
keeps us just where he wants
us. (-:
>Without challenge, there
comes decadence and
complacency. The fall of
>Rome. We live in the richest
culture there ever has been in
the history of
>humanity. Riches solomon
could not have dreamt of, in
the simple things we
>take for granted. Bananas in
the corner store, telephones
and internet,
>refrigeration, central
heating. Solomon could not
have had a 200 piece
>orchestra playing with the
touch of a stereo button. He
could not have
>flown to visit the Queen of
Sheba in an hour.
Wonderfully stated. How
true! - So much is taken for
granted today. We
live in an age where people do
not understand the true
meaning of gratitude.
Most people are walking around
asleep. And what will be their
wake up call to
appreciate what they have? -
Will it be more suffering? I
think it will. )-:
>I have attained a non dual
state for weeks at a time...
and I always
>return to the world. From a
true state of non-duality,
there is no
>motivation to do *anything*.
Sit on my butt under the
Boddhi tree blissing
>out for the rest of my life,
because everything is perfect
and nothing
matters.
Well at least the Buddha
didn't. He may have sat in
meditation under a tree
for six years, but when he
became enlightened, he, out of
unconditional love,
spent the rest of his life
"motivated" by teaching the
Dharma.And for Free!
What a great guy he was!
>I'll stay there for a while,
and enjoy it, but the body
gets restless.
>It knows, there was more
purpose to my choice to
incarnate, than climbing
>back into the cosmic womb.
>Why feed the body, if it does
not matter if it dies? Why
write to a
>list, or care for a child, or
build a temple... why do
anything? I'm not
>saying duality is not
important, it is an attainment
of peace and
>perspective... but you cannot
live on the mountaintop, you
come back to the
>valley where food grows,
while retaining the peace and
perspective of the
>mountain.
Apparently, the Hindu sages
tell us that any longer than
21 days in Samadhi
will result in the death of
the physical body. So, if we
have a purpose here
and now, well then, I guess
we'd better get off our asses
and do something
about it. (-:
>I found that the creative
energy of Shakti itself, is a
byproduct of
>transmuting duality. In
nonduality, I do no art. It is
the alchemy of karma
>transmutation that gives me
the creative energy that I put
into writing,
>painting, websites, cooking,
sculpture, sewing, ... doing.
>I think of being, nonduality
as where I live, home. I leave
it to go to
>work. Doing. Sometimes, I get
stuck in doing and
unconditional surrender
>takes me home again.
Thanks for the insight. We
each have our role to play. I
don't quite know
what mine is yet. Maybe I'll
know with time.
>>This is the way of nature in
this world. It still belongs
to duality. The
>>truth is; the world is full
of danger, and about fighting
for survival to
>>avoid danger or death.
>Is that the truth? Is the
world full of that, or full of
love?
Okay, It's not "the" truth, it
is one of many truths.
>>Hence the reason why the ego
exists. But when we come to be
established
>>in our true nature, which
knows no death or danger,
Where is the need to
>>survive or compete to
survive.
>Yes... where is the reason to
live, at all?
The reason to live at all...is
for us to live in the here and
now so that we
may be instruments for
God/dess to do His/Her will.
To do this, we need to be
firmly established in our true
nature, it is only then that
we are truly able
to bring Light into the lives
of those that need it. And,
out of our
unconditional love, we carry
out this duty without wanting
anything in
return.
> >If I surrender to Shakti,
to God/dess, and move closer
to the Light...
>>Will I need to compete where
there is no competition?
>No. But you may discover
enjoyment of the competition
for its own sake, with
no loss in losing.
Just following this thread is
a good enough example for me
to know what's
going on. I like your word
play, 'tis fun - Don't you
think? And honest, I'm
not competing with you. (-: I
just love interactions with
all things
spiritual. Not competing means
I never lose. - Maybe that
makes me a winner
in
a sense. (-:
> > >I think I prefer Felix's
perspective... evolution at
work, nature,
Goddess.
>>Felix's perspective is only
correct if we live by the
"ways of the world".
>>But "Living the life of the
Spirit" requires that we "be
in the world but
>>not of it". We should be in
this world with non-dual
awareness. -- Some see
>>the glass half full, others
see it half empty. We should
see it, as it IS.
>And, which is it? :) You are
not seeing it, as it IS. You
are telling
>me the world is full of
winners and losers, etc.
Forgive the paradigm shift,
but may I elaborate on the "as
it IS" perception:
Let's imagine energy moving in
one direction only. However,
it can't have
direction without perception.
Our location in space informs
our perception of
this energy's direction - So,
where is the Non-duality
perception within this
duality? I'll try and explain
it as an analogy:
Imagine a transparent analogue
clock with opaque hands. If we
were to observe
the "second" hand on the clock
face, we would perceive its
direction as
clockwise. However, when we
turn the clock upside-down, we
would perceive the
"second" hand moving
counter-clockwise.
Alternatively, draw a circle
on a thin piece of paper, then
draw an arrow
pointing clockwise along the
circle line, turn the paper
over, and you'll
perceive the arrow is now
counterclockwise.-- So, this
is how I see it; "as
it IS".
>>When I stand on a seashore,
I do not want to count the
grains of sand.
>>That's multiplicity,
segregation and separateness.
I want to look at the
>>beauty of it all. That is
Unity.
>Yet, without the individual
grains, the beauty you
appreciate would not
exist...
Yes of course. But my point
was; I want to appreciate the
beauty of the
seashore with its "countless"
grains of sand. I don't want
to "count" the
grains of sand, else I would
be missing the unity of it
all.
>>I Hope that's enough for
now,
>Sure! I write for my own
pleasure, your response is
your option.
>Pleasant to read, but not a
necessity. Do what you feel...
This I do feel...
>but please do respect the
list guidelines. A recent post
of yours was in
styled text, again.
Thanks for the admonishment.
My "newbie" house is now in
order. (-:
It's been fun interacting with
you again, and without
competing. (-:
Love as always,
Dean
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