To: K-list
Recieved: 2003/03/10 16:55
Subject: [K-list] Toronto Blessing....
From: SAC
On 2003/03/10 16:55, SAC posted thus to the K-list:
Hello Jack,
You write:
Message: 3
From: "Bhavin Desai" <bhavin.desai AT_NOSPAM ntlworld.com>
To: <K-list AT_NOSPAM kundalini-gateway.org>
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:48:20 -0000
Subject: [K-list] Toronto Blessing....
Susan, K-List,
Thank you for your valuable personal experiences and insight into the
Toronto Blessing. I have a few small comments which I hope you find
interesting, and which may stimulate further discussion.
> Depending on what sect of Christianity is doing the talking it is
either a > manifestation of God's grace or the works of the Devil.
The issue about Toronto Blessing (= Kundalini, etc) being God's grace or
Devil's work sounds like some combination of ignorance and power play.
In any organisation, and especially in religious organisations, the
people in control like to ensure the general "interest" of the majority
of the members and they usually also have their own hidden agendas.
However, in some cases, the "interest" may not be in line with the
original goals/principles of the organisation. Also, the passage of
time brings different people with different agendas and the quality of
the original source is gradually reduced and dispersed, often causing
the organisation to be eventually split into several parts. Each part
usually claims that it is the only correct and valid view.
Susan: I shared your inquiry with a martial arts master and a deeply
orthodox Christian. He is also an engineer and scientist with a Ph.D. in
his field. This is his partial response which he said I could share with
you:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Susan,
In all seriousness I disagree. See below for why...
If it makes sense you can pass it to Jack...
Me: The Toronto Blessing is just another way Christians describe an
anointing of the Holy Spirit.
Him: Some Christians...even many of the more Pentacostal<sp> consider
the Toronto blessing suspect because it doesn't match historical or
scriptural descriptions of the Holy Spirit, one of which is the Person
of God.
Me: Depending on what sect of Christianity is doing the talking it's
either a manifestation of God's grace or the works of the Devil.
Him: Yes, but a manifestation of God' Grace, of His Uncreated Energy,
does not equal the Holy Spirit.
Me: This debate has been going on for almost as long as the Bible has
been written.
Speaking as a former fundamentalist Christian who went to Bible College
for several years, this was considered the Devil's work, a false
imitation of the agency of the Holy Spirit used to entice gullible
people whether they were Christian or non Christians into sinning
against God and his people.
The Pentecostals, Charismatics (both Protestant and Catholic versions)
and sects like the Shakers have a long, long history of manifesting
kundalini phenomenon that reads just like a yoga primer. Kundalini is a
manifestation of grace that comes upon those without thought of
character or individual merit. It doesn't respect a person's life
station coming down upon the rich to the poor, the unjust and the just,
the meek and the proud, male or female, young or old, gay, straight,
bisexual, or any variation of sexual orientation, racial, ethnic,
religious affiliation or geographical location.
Him: Ah, no. Kundalini is a purely created (see note below) effect that
has nothing to do with God's Grace. You can be pure evil and get there.
Now for some people the opening of the psychic centers may open one to
God's Grace. Kundalini, or the greater Kan and Li in Daoist it is a
linking of your energy centers. Lots of Daoist and Yoga systems do NOT
consider it to be anything more than the initial step on the path...
Receiving the Gifts of the Holy Spirit is to have the Holy Spirit
dwelling in you, a personal relationship with the Third Person of the
Trinity, and it is the goal of all Christians. It is however not
necessarily associated with.
Me: Kundalini is a universal phenomenon found all around the world. It
is just the yoga system is the most systematic description of the
science of awakening a person with God/dess's grace. It is not, by all
means, the only description or system. From the Kaballah, to Taoism, to
Tantrism and to ancient shamanic practices, the energy that is kundalini
is discussed and it's properties, it's initiation, and it's development
are central themes.
The awakening of Kundalini is the Second Birth talked about in
Christianity.
Him: NO!!!! NO!!!! NO!!!! That is Gnosticism not Christianity. The
second birth is the baptism into the Church (big sense) in the name of
Trinity on accepting the reality of Christ God.
Me: Much of what is written about in the New Testament can be applicable
and there are striking parallels to the growth and development of a new
kundalite and that of a baby and then the mature Christian.
Him: And much isn't there because it is not considered necessary to have
the Kundalini to be saved. It's like claiming to be a Christian you must
be a weight lifter... The Ethiopians probably have the best tradition of
handling this weirdness...Most Orthodox cultures have healers who work
with energy and are still accepted members of the church.
Me: As a Christian of many years I learned that grace was the unmerited
favor of God. It was not something I earned but was a gift freely given
from God.
Him: YES!!!! Dead on. But....
but it is not Kundalini. I teach a set of exercises that followed
exactly get you there. That is independent of belief. Just follow them
and you erupt...well, may be not erupt but the rising happens...
Me: I had my own born again/conversion story when I was a young
teenager. I struggled in my Christian practice for many years and was
continually racked by guilt and fear and shame. I eventually turned my
back on what I would call traditional Christianity because it was making
me insane.
Him: What you call Christianity, Dear Heart, is neither Traditional nor
Christian. It's a heresy (a false path) that either turns into a good
guy religion or a form of Calvinism.... It turns man and woman into an
empty puppet....and relieves him of all responsibility for his actions.
Me: My conscience tortured me over what I believed to be the unjust
concepts of hell and suffering caused by an angry god.
Him: Ah yes Hell. God is God, without restrictions and in the East, God
is not looked at as just but merciful. His nature is love. One Orthodox
description of Hell is the Love of God. God is what He is and if you
spent your life becoming like Him, His Presence is a warm glow of
absolute bliss. If you spend your life running away and rejecting Him,
His Presence will burn like flames. So its the person's choice...You get
to chose Heaven or Hell
Me: It was just not congruent to me with what something inside of my
heart was feeling... there was something more to god than what ugliness
I read about of this deity in the Bible and experienced in his
followers. I could not reconcile the sublime goodness of some of the
Bible with the cruelty and capriciousness also found within it's pages
and it's followers.
Him: That's because part of the favorite American heresy is the Bible is
the Word of God. It's not. It's the history of God's trying to get thru
to us. The Word of God is Christ Jesus.
Me: To make a very long and weepy story short, I received Shaktipat over
twelve years ago
Him: Such a child! I knew you were young but<evil leer>
Me: and my life has never been the same. The difference is like night
and day. There is Joy with a capital J, peace everlasting in my heart,
and a relationship with the Divine that is intimate and personal. My
life is filled with grace, a grace that "infects" those that come in
contact with me.
So yes, I have very personal and vibrant experiences.
Him: God's Grace is not constrained. I experienced by Kundalini like
thingy the first time as an agnostic. The second as a Christian. I've
had everything from Baptist to pagans go thru it. It's a magnifier. It
makes you more of what you are. It does not necessarily bring you closer
to the Living God.
Note:
In Orthodoxy, the faith as taught for 2000 years, the tension is not
between natural and supernatural. It is between created and Uncreated.
Everything not God is created and nothing created is God although people
can be come like gods by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...But angels,
demons, power, planets, plants, people are all created. So is the
Kundalini. God in Three Persons, His Essences and His Energies, is
Uncreated. Since the Holy Spirit is a person, we can't make a comparison
to chi, prana, or magick because those are impersonal forces.
The main references for my position would be the Philokalia (4 volumes
of Orthodox meditative teaching) and the book "On Prayer" by Sophrony
(who walked this path before becoming Orthodox).
Back to the conversation between Jack and I:
> sects like the Shakers have a long, long history of manifesting
Kundalini
Jack: I find it interesting that the names "Shakers" and "Quakers" are
very descriptive with respect to the fundamental characteristic of
Kundalini, ie to tremble, quiver, shudder, shiver, etc.
> Kundalini is a> manifestation of grace that comes upon those without
thought ofcharacter> or individual merit.
Jack: In the Indian Yoga tradition the grace of Kundalini is earned
according to the culmination of the good/bad karma in this and previous
lifetimes/incarnations, corresponding to the theory of the
transmigration of the soul. The grace of the Guru is also important as
one of the primary triggers. In any particular lifetime it may *appear*
that the grace comes rather randomly when assessing the behaviour of an
individual in only that single lifetime. No effort is ever wasted (even
from previous lives). God is just (there is no randomness). Merit has
to be earned and it is rewarded appropriately.
Susan: My personal story is my awakening was explosive and mystical,
jarringly physical, spiritual, and emotional. My past lives must have
been pretty interesting because my awakening was phenomenonal.
> Kundalini is a universal phenomenon found all around the world. It is
just> that the yoga system is the most systematic description of the
science
of> awakening a person with God/dess's grace. It is not, by all means,
the
> only description or system.
Jack: I can support this view with a couple of examples. In mathematics
two functions with different names are in fact equal (ie the same
abstract
function) if and only if they have the same attributes and the same
behaviour. Similarly in this universe, two systems, even with different
names such as Toronto Blessing and Kundalini, are in fact equal because
they have the same attributes and behaviour. (This would also apply to
other Kundalini equivalent systems.) Consider for yourself that the
nature of a car, for example, is not changed by people in different
countries calling it by different names.
Another example: suppose you tell me that you once saw an animal with
big ears, great intelligence, good memory, long trunk, ivory tusks,
large body, etc. I could reasonable deduce that it was an elephant.
Therefore the description of a thing can lead to a conclusion about its
name. Hence hearing that a particular person underwent certain symptoms
may lead us to reasonably conclude that it was a manifestation of
Kundalini, or an equivalent name.
It amazes me that people go to so much trouble to argue about the names
and labels of various systems when the attributes and behaviour are the
same implying that in the abstraction they are in fact equivalent!!!
Susan: It seems dependent on which window we look through that our
culture and upbringing has created. We are all looking and experiencing
the same thing...we just don't have the same contexts.
> I struggled in my Christian practice for many years and was
continually> racked by guilt and uncertainty. I eventually turned my
back on what I > would call traditional Christianity because it was
making me insane.My> conscience tortured me over what I believed to be
the unjust conceptsof> hell and suffering caused by an angry god.
Jack: The applied techniques of guilt, uncertainty, hell, suffering,
angry god, etc, *appear* to be the modus operandi of power play
(detailed discussion above).
> "Wherever I am, God is."
Jack: Excellent.
> To make a very long and weepy story short, I received Shaktipat over
> twelve years ago and my life has never been the same.
Jack: There are perhaps many people in the same situation as you were 12
years ago. Would you consider giving them the benefit of your
experiences? If so, then how would you locate them and instruct them? A
more general question would be: do you feel that we have some
responsibility in educating/instructing others about Kundalini?
Susan: I do give people the benefit of my experiences on a regular
basis. I do co-teach a Tantra class once a month in where kundalini
energy is one of the foci. Some people look at me like I have two heads
when I tell them of my experiences. Some people become weak and amazed
in feeling the energy that is in my energy field. Some get scared, even
terrified, some are skeptical. A few want more. I find different
reactions to the sharing of my story.
The people find me. I don't go looking for them. I was invited to co
teach the class because the tantra instructor felt the essence of who I
am and wanted to be my apprentice.
I also own the kundalini sex list on Yahoo and moderate on the k list
where I have been a member almost from its inception.
I may have some responsibility. I educate/instruct when there is
interest. People are at different levels of understanding and awareness
when they come to me. What I am is out of the ordinary in a unremarkable
wrapping. People don't know how to fit me into their understanding of
what life is. It is easier to ignore than to explore and understand. I
have done that a lot and now I wonder how much I have missed.
I find I am in a stage where it doesn't really matter to me if people
know or not. I have no ambition for teaching. When I do it I do it
because I find it fun and I like the warm hugs from grateful people. I
do it because I like the way Shakti feels in my body and heart when I
share it with others.
I do it for me.
I was telling my tantra friend a couple of days ago that "what is the
big deal with all this enlightenment stuff? Big deal...once you get
there...who cares? :) The only difference between pre enlightenment and
post enlightenment is now my heart is full of peace and joy is ever
present. I get up. I go to work. I ride the bus. I am average." I forget
about all the sturm and drang that happened in the middle. Except this
month... so far I forgot to pay my rent, had a false positive reaction
to a TB test (made my arm look like it had been stung by a wasp), got my
hand stepped on and kicked in the head when I was laying on the floor at
a party, bought a car but can't get my driver's license for a couple of
weeks and other things too numerous to mention...the drama trauma train
express seems to have a ticket for me to ride on it this month.
And I am happy, truly my life is filled with smiles.
What I tell my students is enlightenment is not the goal. It is just the
beginning.
I am a terrible teacher, not much compassion.
Namaste,
Susan
************************************************************
Krishnamurti: "The moment you have in your heart this extraordinary
thing called love and feel the depth, the delight, the ecstasy of it,
you will discover that for you the world is transformed."
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