To: K-list
Recieved: 2002/12/31 09:25
Subject: Re: [K-list] Gurus and all that
From: Lbra782595
On 2002/12/31 09:25, Lbra782595 posted thus to the K-list:
In a message dated 12/30/02 5:03:09 PM Central Standard Time,
pgd-karolinaliATnospamalgonet.se writes:
>
> So actually, I know how it is to live with a guru, but not exactly how it
> is
> to be a disciple. I could hear his "official" classes, and then hear what
> his
> leading disciples thought he said. I could see his nearest disciples crawl
> in
> submission on the floor for him, get their orders, and then hear how they
> came out of there as the "nearest" disciples of the guru and said something
>
> else to the "lesser" disciples with the words "the guru said". I could see
> how the leading disciples reported to him what was happening (since the
> guru
> was often travelling and could not know what was going on), but actually
> twisting the facts the way they wanted it, and thus indirectly control the
> guru, so they could say "the guru said". I could see the multiple cleaning
> up
> actions by my guru, and then how the leading disciples tried to undo it. It
>
> was largely a big ugly power game.
> I could also see the disciples who had no clue about what it meant to be a
> disciple, but who had a sentimental attachment to "the big guru", and
> worshipped him in a kind of external religious way.
>
Hi Karolina,
Sounds like the typical religious heirarchy stuff some teachers get sucked
into. Even if the Guru has the best of intentions, it's easy to get lost in
the "delegation of responsibility" issues. Older disciples become executives
in the organization and, if their not careful, the ego gets in the way of
progress. Have you read "Autobiography of a Yogi" Yogananda had to try
different Guru's before he found Sri Yukteswar. He visited many and only
signed on with one other. Finding a Guru is like buying a house or a car:
Shop around, don't just settle on the first one you come to.> It was quite an experience. I think this is more the rule than the exception
>
> in religious groups where there is a charismatic leader. The bigger group,
> the more power play. Even if the guru really tries to keep it spiritually
> on
> a straight course, finally it becomes just to much for him. Maybe the only
> way such a spiritual group can work in the long run is if the guru is
> crooked
> from the beginning. But then we can never know, since we never hear the
> uncorrupted version from the spiritual leader. It can also be very hard to
>
> see the corruption, since most of the time we just don't know the original
> spiritual message.
>
I disagree here. If the true goals of both the Guru and disciple is the
giving and receiving of knowlege then there can be nothing but some degree of
success. If either has other motivations, then the relationship is tainted
with ego and degrades.
I do think it is a mistake to look for a good teacher who already has a
large number of "inner circle" disciples. No matter if s/he is enlightened,
they are still only one person and can only give so much time to each
disciple. Even if there is only one Guru and one disciple, if the the
exchange of knowlege is completed, then each has fullfilled their goal.
> Getting something decent spiritually from the net, without knowing something
>
> from the beginning, I think is next to impossible, since it is just
> charismatic guru-types that get their message spread, and that is what
> turns
> up in the search engines.
>
Net Guru's are a dime a dozen. Many are just trying to sell you something.
That is not to say that their knowlege has no value, only that, eventually,
their other motivations will create a breach in the relationship of trust
that must be established between a Guru and disciple. However, there is valid
information available on the net from people who have no interest in being a
Guru.
Charisma is not a requirement for a Guru. It is a natural manifestation in
an enlightened person, but a Guru who genuinely desires to teach will not use
charisma to attract other disciples, but rather to motivate the disciples he
has to deeper understanding.
> Now, why do we need a guru?
> As I see it, the guru and the submission to him (her) has a very important
> function. When we enter the spiritual field, we already have a concept of
> what spirituality is. And we are convinced that we know the final end of
> it.
> Maybe we have read a lot of books, and think we know it all. Most people
> have
> had a spiritual experience, and want to learn more about it. It is almost
> impossible to say something else to a person who things that s/he already
> has
> the answer. But the spiritual realisation is not book learning, it is
> rather
> a twist of the consciousness in a direction that we have no idea about in
> the
> beginning. It is not a thing about learning, not a thing about intelligence
>
> and logic. It is something completely different. But as long as we hold on
> to
> believing it can be understood with the intelligence, with logic or with
> anything we have from before, it is impossible to learn it.
>
Submission and surrender are often topic on this list. It is important to
understand them. Mystress Angelique is the expert on the topic of surrender
to the divine. She offers a Tantra course on-line that has an in-depth
perspective on surrender. Susan, Percyval and others here can give wonderful
insights into the value of surrender as well.
It is important to bear in mind that submission to a Guru or other surrogate
is merely a rehearsal for the "real thing". When you have learned how to
surrender to the surrogate, you will have a better idea of how to surrender
to you "higher self" or "Divine Self" or whatever name you prefer.
Unfortuneatly, it takes a very grounded person not let the ego be inflated by
all these people surrendering to you. The idea that is only "practice" must
be maintained by both master and student. > So a guru has a business of contradicting our logic, our intelligence or
> learning, until we are so dizzy, and confused that we don't understand a
> thing, let our mental guard down, and then he has to kind of jam in the
> spiritual understanding into us. I recently read the Castaneda books, and I
>
> kind of laughed, since I recognised exactly the same thing there. How the
> "guru" did everything to contradict and tire the mind of the disciple, just
>
> to be able to give the mystic understanding.
>
"You must 'un-learn' what you have learned"
....................................Ben Kenobi, from the original Star Wars
movie
Our own prejudices and preconceptions are our worst enemy when it comes to
trying to reach spiritual understanding. If you are unwilling to set aside
the things that you already think you know, nothing wonderful or miraculous
can find its way into your consciousness. Heheh, I still have quite a few of
my own that I'm working toward removing. :^) You must be willing to accept
the idea that the impossible is possible.
> One of the bigger threats to spiritual understanding, in my opinion, is the
> western attempts to explain everything with science, psychology, and so on.
>
> It is a complete killer to spiritual understanding, unless you are really
> extraordinarily bright and can see through the science part. It might be
> right, and it might be possible to use scientific understanding for some
> parts of the spiritual understanding. That's not the problem. The problem
> is
> trying to find material, mundane, explanations to that which can't be
> understood (by the brain).
>
The western analytical mind loves to pigeon-hole information so that is
readily accessible. The problem with the general attitude of western
thinking is that they have "their cart in front of their horse". Explaining
mystical experiences by means of brain chemistry and unhappy childhoods is
merely looking at symptoms, not the cause of the symptoms. The physical body
is not the source of the experience, it is the manifestation of the
experience. The source is MUCH deeper.
Here are some remarks I wrote on the list earlier about finding your Guru.
>Another mark of true teacher is that he or she will never judge you. They
will offer >you guidance and wisdom while never trying to force you to act in
a particular >manner and leave you free to make your own decisions. A true
teacher will also be >an avid pupil. Humility is another mark; a true
teacher will never say "Here is THE one and only Path!" but rather "Here is
A path".
A Gurus are "wayshowers". They bring light into dark places. For this they
should be respected. If they demand worship for their abilities, then in my
humble opion, their ego has gotten out of control.
In conclusion to all my Pontification today:^), let me say that, to some
degree, every person is both a teacher and student. Take care what you
teach. Be aware of the lessons being taught to you every second of your
life. With this thought in mind, I leave with the following quote.
"No such thing as bad student; only bad teacher"
...................Pat Morita, from "The Karate Kid"
With Love to All,
Jason B
http://www.kundalini-gateway.org
http://www.domin8rex.com/serpent/spirit/kindex.htm
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