To: K-list
Recieved: 2002/08/22 13:33
Subject: [K-list] Re: Ida, Pingala debate
From: Druout
On 2002/08/22 13:33, Druout posted thus to the K-list:
In a message dated 8/22/2002 7:51:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
joemillerATnospamhotmail.com writes:
> And
> as I said several thousand years of experience shared by millions of people
>
> is worth much much more than one person's imagined experiences.
>
Dear Joe,
It's always dangerous to presume another's experience is imaginary! Some
might say Ida and pingala shushuma are imaginary also. We consist of energy.
Certainly if we feel parts of our body merging with other parts, or
"disappearing" entirely, it is not for others to gainsay it. IMO Both RK
Shankar's interpretation and experience seem perfectly reasonable.
>
> The energies in Ida and Pingala, lets call it what is it, prana, can be
> used
> to control sushumna, but they don't merge with it.
>
Don't they? I think you are being rather literal here. Moreover, I
certainly don't see why prana in the ida and pingala shouldn't be able to
leave the boundaries and merge into the shushumna. When I feel the energy
throughout the body I don't feel any boundaries at all. Separation seems to
me to be purely arbitrary.
An interesting quote from Swami Shivom Tirth: p. 47 *A Guide to Shaktipat*
"As long as the breath is active in Ida ...or Pingala ..., without control
and its outward flow has not turned within into Sushumna, actual aspiration
cannot be said to have begun..."
Sounds rather like merging of the energies to me.
>
> There seems to be a total lack of understanding of the interactions of
> Kundalini, Prana, and the individual's body and will. Forget the lay out in
>
> the body for a moment, lets use a metaphor that is extremely apt. Think of
> the person, his/her body and mind being on one side, Kundalini being on the
>
> other, and Prana being in the middle. The two outside elements, Kundalini
> and the individual can only interact, or rather can interact most easily
> using the middle element, prana, as the intermediary. You can control
> prana,
> prana can influence Kundalini. Kundalini can influence/control prana and it
>
> can influence or control you.
Nice description! :)) I also think it's useful to make a distinction
between K and prana, though many texts say they are the same. [From Kurt
Keutzer's FAQ's "The second opinion, espoused by Swami Shivom Tirth for
example, is that prana and Kundalini are absolutely equivalent and that it is
not meaningful in any way to describe a difference between Kundalini rising
and prana rising." ]
I agree though that pranayama seems central to K awakening.
And agree ANB is calming. I don't often use it myself, finding that K itself
regulates breathing.
>
> How does ANB work? Well if all of those teachers over the last few thousand
>
> years who informed us of the existence of Kundalini knew anything (and if
> anyone thinks they didn't know their stuff, what the hell are you doing on
> this list because the idea of Kundalini would be nothing but bunk, right)
> one might listen to their explanation.
>
Non sequitur! There are many people on the list who know little and care
less about the ancient teachers. The term Kundalini is now used pretty
universally as a description of a group of "symptoms"--not necessarily
aligned with religious teachings. IMO, to hold only to tradition means lack
of growth. We learn most from actual descriptions of our experiences. If
they veer from traditional teachings, so be it!
>
> If Ida and Pingala ceased to exist, the statement I was objecting to, and
> no
> Kundalini Master in history has ever said that happens, this control
> mechanism, the one taught for thousands of years could not and would not
> work. Hence, all of those teachers who taught about Kundalini would have
> had
> all of their students wasting their time trying to perform the impossible.
> Logically when those students used this technique and obtained results they
>
> would have been delusional.
>
Again a non sequitur. One can use many different visualizations to balance
the energies.
> So we are left with the choice that thousands of years of students, some of
>
> whom have gone on to enlightenment, some even to be great teachers, have
> been delusional and RK Shankar knows more than all of them put together, or
>
> he could possibly be mistaken.
Not at all. We have no idea how many students/teachers have used this
general method to balance the energies or even how many have needed it to
balance them. > Most importantly to me, I have a debt to the tradition. It is never to be
> "unnecessarily on the warpath" to do my duty and pay my debts to a
> tradition
> that has so blessed me.
As we have discussed off list honor, to self and to
> tradition, is a paramount value. To let someone pollute the teachings and
> pass that crap along to the hundreds of interested people on this list as
> "truth" unchallenged would be without honor. It would not be doing my duty.
>
> It would be dishonoring my debts.
>
One can challenge positions and set records straight, if that is what you
believe, and even be outspoken without being dogmatic and resort to name
calling. That hardly does honor to a tradition, IMO
> I realize that most on this list are much more touchy-feely than I. I also
> realize that practicing traditional values wins me no friends with most of
> them. That is sad but if that is the way of things so be it. I must honor
> the debt.
>
Nonsense! "Practicing traditional values" is not what loses you support.
> > >It is very good to be grateful to the traditional teachers of Wisdom
> > >But, you need not seal yourself against other modes of awareness.
> >
> >Absolutely!
>
> But when your "other modes" produce "results" that conflict with wisdom
> with
> a long history it is at least prudent to admit the possibility that it is
> you, and not they, who has made a mistake.
Perhaps the conflict derives from a limited interpretation of the texts.
Love, Hillary
http://www.kundalini-gateway.org
http://www.domin8rex.com/serpent/spirit/kindex.htm
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