To: K-list
Recieved: 2002/05/21 10:34
Subject: Re: [K-list] Re: Ego
From: Mystress Angelique Serpent
On 2002/05/21 10:34, Mystress Angelique Serpent posted thus to the K-list:
At 07:17 AM 20/05/02, Joseph Miller wrote:
> >He is only saying that social morality is conditioning... not the same
> >as Right Action.
>
>As I read what you said it sounds like I was dead on in what I was getting
>out of the website. Morality as "conditioning" denies the basis of right and
>wrong. It become no more than growing one's hair long in the 60s and 70s and
>cutting it off today to fit into the youth culture of the day.
>
>Morality is about right and wrong. It is far more than conditioning to not
>harm children, it is moral to not harm them. Right and wrong are not
>"conventions" they are fairly clear to any who would stop and think. Theft,
>OK except for silly "conditioning"? Rape, OK except for "conditioning"?
>Killing for the thrill of it, OK except for "conditioning"? NO!, NO!, and
>again NO! Those things are morally wrong.
My druid has a sig file that asks, "If electricity comes from
electrons, does morality come from morons?"
Goddess does not judge, and there are cultures that have different
morality around all of those issues. Killing for a thrill is wrong, but a
Government killing for war or revenge is OK... even broadcasting the
executions to the masses for their cathartic entertainment? It is wrong to
harm children in this society... but it is OK to drug them, brainwash them,
let them starve for lack of social welfare. If you are in the far east, it
is moral to mutilate the genitals of little girls. Immoral not to, as it
prevents teen pregnancies, unwed mothers and children growing up to be
criminals... Genital mutilation is preferable, in their view.
In the past, racism was considered moral and good, even slavery. The
Spanish Inquisition thought themselves moral above all. Certainly Hitler
thought himself as a hero, and the SS was in full agreement... that was
moral for that society, time and conditioning... and they got quite a bit
of brainwashing to make them think so.
The Crusades was some Christians being very moral, same with the Witch
burnings. The Suffragettes were considered very very immoral in their time,
because they did not stay home and shut up like society wanted. How will
future generations judge our morality, when they are dealing with the
effects of global warming they will inherit?
>Social convention and in large part social conditioning is about growing a
>beard or not, how to wear your hair, your dress or pants, your whatever or
>holding the door for someone who doesn't have his/her arms full and needs
>help.
That would be your interpretation of social conditioning... and
really, I am surprised at the shallowness of it, coming from you. Guess
Osho really set you off, eh? Heh.. he does that. Look at all the resistance
coming up for you!
For me it goes deeper than that. Osho's point, is that acting
according to social conditioning is an ego based idea, a relative judgment.
The way society runs is not always Dharma. Morality and social conditioning
change from culture to culture and age to age... but the Dharma Is.
For myself, as a fem raised christian in this society, I have had to
throw off quite a lot of social conditioning that told me my gender was
inferior before God and my place was at home making babies for some macho
controlling guy. Deep levels of social conditioning that taught be to be
sexual is dangerous because bad grrls get punished or killed in all the
stories of our culture, from Eve to Salome to Fatal Attraction.
My mother finds it shocking that I go to a nude beach... but for me it
is beauty and I am glad I broke through the social morality/shame at nudity
she impressed on me. We talked about it and she shrugged and agreed that it
was not wrong, just different than her generation. My Mom had me when she
was nearly 40, so the generation gap is wider than for most. She has had to
adjust her ideas of morality many times to keep up with her children.
Morality often has little to do with right and wrong. For me, a sense
of right and wrong is how the idea feels in my power chakra and whether it
dampens the heart fires. It has little to do with the morality my mother
and the faith I was born to, tried to pass along.
Gandhi said "The still small voice within, is the only tyrant I will
accept."
I do not see any disclaimer there about if morality or social
conventions gives him different directives. That is what Osho is saying
also. That pride in morality can be a big ego game, and is not to be
confused with enlightenment. How many self styled paragons of morality do
we see crash and burn in the news? The louder they are the harder they
fall, like Jerry Falwell or the current situation in the RC church. Pride
in morality is an indicator of a big shadow wanting to come out.
It is a convention of Tantra to spend some time breaking social
conventions, if only in imagination... as a way to get past it and discover
life outside of the box. Osho used it a lot, and had a lot of fun poking at
society's moral judgments with his Rolls Royces, etc. Shocking people,
bringing up their issues. Got quite a rise out of you, eh? ;)
Do you think the Buddha or Christ were kind gentle beings because of
social morality and conditioning? No... an enlightened being has no need to
rape or kill, no impulse to it and so there is no need of morality, in
them. They are aligned with the Dharma, which transcends social morality.
The Buddha was raised to be a Prince, he had a duty not just to his
kingdom, but also his wife and children whom he abandoned to seek higher
purpose. Breaking free of the morality he was raised with, was step one on
his path. Later, he shocked the Ascetics he was hanging around with, by
smashing their rules. Boinking a cowherder maid, eating and bathing.... and
thus was inspired to the idea of the Middle path.
Even here, Joseph... on this list we have a set of morals, called
guidelines and one of them is respect for other paths. You kind of stomped
it flat, before... :) With a kind of fervor I usually see reserved for book
burnings and witch hunts. Nobody seemed to want to discuss it with you,
your vehemence makes it clear that your mind is made up.
Well, you have been on the list pretty much since its inception ( and
welcome here!) so I know that you know the guidelines for list morality....
but I guess you disregarded it in favor of what seemed to you to be a
higher calling of .. well, name calling like a schoolboy, really.... Never
thought I'd see the day when gentle Joseph is telling the world that he is
glad someone is dead! What morality is that?
Heh... morality serves a purpose, it is how we civilize our children
after we have squashed their chakras closed ... but it is often like a coat
that is taken on and off according to the weather. Dharma is eternal.
I am sure Osho would not mind being called a clown, and would have been
delighted to have so effectively poked your buttons. Thanks for posting.
Blessings!
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