To: K-list
Recieved: 2001/11/15 17:54
Subject: [K-list] Re: Mystresses explanation of patterns - more thoughts on male/female union - need advice!!
From: Joshua Sutterfield
On 2001/11/15 17:54, Joshua Sutterfield posted thus to the K-list:
From: "Siska " <;
----------
BUT - help - - attachment alert!! Intuition, not feelings tell me I've
found my partner. Or if not my partner - than a life long deep
friendship. It's amazing - we are the same yet opposite. What he's poor
at I'm good at and vice versa - we were on th is increcible voyage of
discovery - mental, physical, spiritual - we were literally expanding each
other. It was exhilerating. BUT he's totally cut off from the emotional.
<snip>
<oops cut something I wanted to keep, gist: he's off shagging people, he
wanted various bits of me, but not the whole, she cut off complete>
----------
Well, my intuition/emotion had things to say immediately, before I saw
the plea for advice. So here's what I felt:
I guess the cutting off from him is an act of non-attachment, or
overcoming attachment. Yet what I thought was that it was actually
feeding an attachment of a different/deeper nature.
I think most of us have an attachment to the idea of finding "a partner"
(regardless of whether we have a specific person in mind), but where this
specifically means one person we'll be with the rest of our lives, who
we'll never have to detach from, and who will never have to detach from
us. One question is when do we "have" to? For me, I only have to if I
know they're already virtually doing it, or are limited by their very
attachment to me, or their concept of me (which is only "bits" of me). In
other words when I cease to be able to expand them, or we cease to be able
to expand eachother.
One thing about the attachment to finding this partner is.. we've already
quantified it as one. I guess the implication is that its sexual and
we're monogamous, which is generally how I am. But, other than that, well
we could have several life partners.. several people we never have to
detach from, never stop growing with.. maybe several people we are as open
with as we are with ourselves. Recently a switch flipped in me and I'm
being probably entirely too open with many people. Yet not EVERYone, I do
have some logistics about it, I do consider the danger, but there were SO
many people I could've been open with, who deserved what I have to offer
(like my dad or mom). Lots of other people to.. I am shy, but lately I've
been telling people very deep things, unconcerned about myself, as long as
I know they will benefit from it and not harm me with what they know. But
the fact I volunteer the info automatically frees me from the danger of
harm in so many ways.. lots of times we are vulnerable through the simple
act of protecting our vulnerability so vigilantly, that it stings when
someone pierces it, whether it REALLY would otherwise harm us or not.
Back on track (as felix pointed out, I ramble/wander like crazy). So Siska
referred secondarily to this nonexclusive life partnership as well, as
something she hoped for if she didn't get the "whole deal" or he didn't
want the "whole deal". But I guess in my relationship with my current
hypothetical lifelong exclusive partner (er, uh, girlfriend) is that we
totally gave ourselves over to whatever it can or can't be. We embraced a
lifelong friendship as really all there was. The sex would come
naturally, if it did, or wouldnt if it didnt (although with me personally
I imagine that with male or female, sex would always become a part of it
unless there were a block between us, even were it "committment"
maintained to another, hey, every block is a committment to some internal
problem, in a way).
So anyways, when I read of this enthusiasm for a huge connection with huge
potential, I sense "friendship" playing a bit of second fiddle, when it
really can't, I don't think. Obviously friendship was key, I am sure Siska
wasn't trying to separate it from the foremost hope, as a consolation
prize. But still, some attachment to a separation exists maybe. That
is, when he wanted to "pick and mix" that.. wasn't good enough. Well I
mean I'm sure the key was that it HURT, and he probably was hurtful about
it. Those things are tied though.. he may have to insulate himself, or
play the hurter, because he expects it to hurt.. like he is violating one
of your attachments, so he's aware of the struggle, and may confront it,
yet still stick to his desire for "pieces of women", and not whole women.
So.. I guess, as long as he goes after that desire, he doesn't know what
else to "be" in your eyes, than what you have decided. BUT, I am
wondering what keeping in touch with him would've done for him. Maybe it
would've shown him someone else he could be. If somehow you worked
through the hurt (granted that's hard if he isn't willing to help), and
are still his friend, even dare I say it, eager to talk with him about
what he is learning as he jumps from shag to shag: well, what will he
THEN see in you.. or would he then be challenged to see himself
differently, to imagine what you must see in him? He would have to begin
to see that too, he could not entirely persist in his self-image as
mr-shag-em-and-leave-em. I mean obviously he doesn't think so low of
himself (probably), but if he continues to "force" women to cut off from
him, if this is a pattern, then he knows he is a guy who women "have" to
cut off from, and he's got his own internal woman, so therefore it
affects how he sees himself.
I guess if he has issues with his mother, well there you go.. what does
the woman who sees and understands his patterns do.. does she give him
bits of herself, get hurt when he doesnt seem to want "all of it" (or is
afraid to admit he does or doesnt know he does), does she simply fit into
the pattern? Does he learn more if she breaks from the pattern?
One thing about "pick and mix".. as much as it stings how he goes about
it, well if he doesnt want the whole, he must be afraid of more. And even
if he did want the whole, we are ALL "pick and mix" people.. our very
selves are pick&mix.. we picked what we were out of the whole universe of
what we really were. So at some bottom line I think one should seek to
forgive what another person doesn't want of you, or doesn't know how to
appreciate (yet). Be it their failure, or yours in presenting those
parts, it doesnt matter.. it's always a failure *between*. I take it upon
myself when someone doesn't see something in me as I wish they saw it,
doesn't appreciate it. I say.. well, I have just not shown it in a way
they could see it. There may not BE a way for them yet to see it, but if
so.. well they gotta go somewhere else, find someone else who shows them
how to see it. And then maybe one day they realize, oh wait, now I see
what was so great about that one person who cut me off. So would he do
that, probably not.. probably not unless some other great woman showed him
something great.. hopefully if so, you would be glad for him that he
realized he wanted more of you than he was aware of at the time, hopefully
that wouldnt just make it suck more for you, heheh.
You asked "Have I got it wrong?" I really think THIS is an attaachment
alert in your message. Got what wrong. Is there really an it? You and
he picked and mixed from eachother, you wanted more, saw more, he didn't,
or refused to. I believe completely in a purpose, in a sequence, but I
think our attachment to it can be a weakness, in our trying to guess it,
or hoping it's this or that. To suggest you could get it right or wrong,
is to say it was somehow bound to some course -- well, I mean, it IS..
but its YOURS.. and HIS.. its chosen, it depends. Sort of a paradox. I
would say, in the long long long run, outside of bodies and time, you got
it right. You will be together with him.. you ARE together with him.
You've only experienced part of it, and it felt very true, because it was.
But it didnt guarantee anything about this lifetime or that lifetime. If
at some point you say "I must've been wrong" and cut off from him.. well
you chose it.. you fulfilled the fate-based thought. I guess I think we
must believe in practice that... there is no end goal that is not
guaranteed, and its outcome is DEFINITELY not something we should attach
ourselves to, or make decisions based on our forecast of it. Only to be
the friend, to feel the friendship, to love, in every way possible. To
keep openness so far as it serves you both, to keep the option of
communication (once you surface from the hurt of it all). I think that
would make the hurt worth it... that would be the ultimate validation of
the hurt.. by fulfilling the truth.. hurt is about healing, about having
new breakthroughs, new understandings, that make that hurt not possible
next time. But not just in that, next time you cut it off quicker, with
less hurt. But you actually at some point don't "have" to cut it off,
cause there is no hurt (unless you cut it off to keep them from hurting
themselves). Or maybe just end the sex but not the friendship. And of
course you NEVER want to end the love itself that you felt, even if you
never express it to him again. Ending that, I think, damages all future
relationships.
Hmm.. a general thought about loving in that relationship or any, he's
always loving himself through you, and you are always loving yourself
through him. Bits and pieces, points of identification/connection. I
like to think I "have" the whole with my girlfriend, but I only mean I
have access to the whole.. we have the continued potential for gaining
more and more bits. More bits of her, or equivalently more bits of ME,
I'm becoming part of it, we're becoming more of the same being.
I am still very very close with one of my ex-girlfriends. I've finally
gotten to the point where I talk to her and give her advice about new guys
she meets, and am only into it for her growth, and for her successful
"giving" to others, in ways she couldnt have when she was with me, or that
I couldnt show her, or that I wasn't able to give then. Likewise she has
let go of her defensiveness, her fear of my potential jealousy. It wasn't
just jealousy of course, but she couldnt handle my thoughts sometimes --
cause she was making big messy mistakes with guys and I couldnt find a way
to tell her she was hurting herself, without making it harder on her. Now
I'm more ready than ever to not-judge her, even if she does more careless
things with guys, but also she's quite wise by now, and I know she has all
the answers inside her. I'm tremendously glad I have the relationship I
have with her now, and am really excited as she talks about her latest
guy, and I tell her all the great ways I think she could give to him, all
the ways she could keep herself growing through it, and also, all the ways
she can treat him right. I am really enthused about any two people in
love.. even my girlfriend.. I am ready for the possibility of her
connecting deeply with someone else, even getting sexual (I said I'm
ready, not that it would be easy to let go of her sexually). I guess the
best way to describe it, like how I see my ex-girlfriend and her budding
relationship, is that they are having a metaphorical baby. Their love is
a third being, is a validation of the unity between them, a manifestation
which enriches both people.. and I'm thrilled about it, rather than just
the stereotypical "well I'm happy for you" that exes say to exes.
Look how much I talk! It's funner than doing my graduate research, folks.
Um so Siska .. maybe what I say makes sense or maybe it doesnt, obviously
lots of crap to sift through, I encourage you to pick and mix from it and
find the biggest truth you can. I think an ideal state would be to be
ready for a relationship to be shitty, to not end with
whole-uniting-with-whole-until-death, and STILL believe in the
relationship completely, as a means to love yourself and know yourself,
and say nothing and care nothing about your initial suspicions about
whether it was meant to be or not.. whatever it is, it was meant to be, so
embrace that as much as you can, and see its purpose, dont make too many
calls on it, adjusting your decisions based on your attachment to some
specific result you had in mind.
losh.
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