To: K-list
Recieved: 2001/02/11 21:26
Subject: [K-list] your opinion on healing
From: Vickie Novak
On 2001/02/11 21:26, Vickie Novak posted thus to the K-list:
Hi Angelique, I started snipping some of the stuff then got confused
with it all. I'm tired. Sorry.
>First of all thank you far taking the time. I sent this to you
because I knew
>you would be honest and tell me what you really feel. I am grateful
for that.
You are welcome. :) I know that my views are not very popular in
the
current climate of political correctness.. but I don't care. They are
mine,
and I do think they are more progressive.
I do not care for popular or politically correct. I want truth.
> > The second, is that issues of injustice only appear at the
lower
> > chakras, particularly the power chakra. In the higher chakras,
there is
> > only perfection. God-dess does not judge. So, is there greater
value in
> > acknowledging injustice, or in seeking to see perfection in what
Is?
>
>There are parts of me that agree with what you say here and there are
other
>parts that are confused. I am struggling to find the place where this
will be
>healed for me. I think I understand that Goddess does not judge but
do we?
Of course we do.. you are judging an injustice. It is your
judgment.
>And
>to what end? As for seeking the perfection in what is. Can I seek the
>perfection in my own search, my own " judgment" for healing between
peoples?
Yes! Your ego is not separate from Goddess, it only feels like
it.
However, will that judgment give you happiness and fulfillment?
(assuming
you seek happiness and fulfillment.)
I do seek happiness and fulfillment.
> > In that vein, I want you to look at the larger picture: all
beings
> > are territorial, and fight for real estate.
>
>Yes this is true. How do I look at what is still happening with the
native
>peoples? They continue to be slaughtered.
Ah.. well, that is a very emotional statement, but rather out of
date.
I hardly think that is happening anymore.
Actually it is happening but at a slower rate than in the past.
At this point, at least in North
America they seem to be mostly slaughtering themselves..
This is sadly true too
which is .. odd. I
almost wonder if that is actually a side effect of reparation.. simply
because it did not happen to such a wide extent in other places in
History
where there was cultural takeover, but not a welfare state.
I doubt it but I don't know.
In Canada, one of the last indigenous nomadic peoples who were
living
their traditional lifestyle, for some reason where given houses to
live in,
and now most of the teenagers have taken to huffing gasoline.. Why? I
dunno..
The natives call this time, "The purification".. a kind of
spiritual
"natural selection", apparently.
> Maybe
>Goddess deems that I get up off my duff and actually do something
instead of
>just blathering on about it.
Sure.. sometimes it is a soul decision, what you were born to do.
Part
of the reason I incarnated on this planet is to work on redeeming the
sacredness of sexuality.. and so, many forms of sexual repression hit
a
chord in me, even if they have little to do with my own personal life.
I
can see perfection in it, from a higher chakra view, and I also see
perfection in my own activism.
I had an option.. shortly after my ego-death I was hanging out in
a
blissful state of detachment seeing perfection in everything, non
duality,
it all reflected my own Divine Self.. but I got kind of restless with
it,
after a while.. It just seemed like I did not incarnate to sit on my
ass
under the Boddhi tree for the rest of my life. So, I chose to come
back
into the world and pick up where I'd left off.. and I find great
beauty in it.
Thanks for continuing to do this.
> Where do I play a part in any of this.
You are the only one who can answer that. Follow your heart.
That's what I am trying to do.
> Yah I can
>know that all this comes from the lower chakras. And I think- so
what. This is
>where I am now. This is what I feel I need to be doing no matter how
>unenlightened it looks to others. I feel I came here to experience
not
>just sit
>back and ok lets watch the games. Do you know what I mean?
Yes, I know exactly. The advantage of looking for perfection in
what
Is, is that the higher chakra perspective is helpful for navigation.
Just
like a satellite map is more accurate than one measured from the
ground.
Surrender everything, and what Goddess gives back, is yours. Acting on
what
is given back, or what cannot be surrendered because Goddess won't
take it,
is what I call "active surrender".
Ok this is good. This is what I am looking to learn. To do work at this
level and to have the guidance of the higher
chakras. Active surrender............. I need to think about this.....
active surrender......... eh?
>I know that I have the capacity to do all things within myself. I'm
dealing
>with it in the best way that I know.
Good.
> I do not feel guilty and don't want
>anyone else to either.
Ah so.. OK, the way you wrote about seemingly wanting to change
the
past, gave me that impression. The way you write about mistakes and
injustice. Justice is all about guilt, isn't it? Innocent or guilty,
and
the gavel bangs down. If there is not guilt, then what is the
injustice you
feel a need to repair? What needs to be acknowledged?
I don't want to change the past. I would like healing to happen to the
extent that we don't have to kill each other any
more. Is justice all about guilt. Maybe it is but that has been my frame
work up until now. How does the healing happen
then? What is all this killing over stupid sh*t about? How does it ever
stop? When do we ever value each other just
because?
> What I would like to see is humans learning through the
>'mistakes' that have been made in the past. I think I know everything
is
>perfect but I'm trying to find a way to understand this whole thing
in this
>place and time because that's where I am. So I have an ego.Okey
dokey well
>maybe this process is a part of how I come to a place where ego
evolves. I
>trust that Goddess is always leading me in the right direction. This
must be
>the right place because here I am. :)
Right!
> > Humans are violent, territorial creatures, just like most
everything
> > else on this planet.. That is what I think you really need to
> > acknowledge. The key to changing that, is not to pretend it does
not exist
> > and feel guilty, but rather to acknowledge and accept that aspect
of your
> > nature, and give it a different outlet. Moving the tribal violence
to the
> > hockey rink or Kung Fu Dojo.. going hunting with a camera instead
of a gun.
>
> I know that the violence does exist I just wish that we could move
> beyond it
>or do it differently some how.
We are doing it differently.. there is reparation, there is
charity
and a desire to find a better balance..
>In my opinion an acknowledgment of what has been done is all that is
>needed. It feels to me like that opens the channels for healing to
flow
>but I don't really
>know.
Perhaps that acknowledgement has to occur, both ways.
I don't think there is any value in the natives (or anyone else)
continuing to see themselves as victims. An attitude of Victimhood is
an
emotional choice, and it is not empowering.
Yes this is probably true. Empowerment is what I want.
Nobody decides how you will feel, but you.. and Goddess within
you. As
soon as you blame someone else for how you feel, you are making them
be God
for you.. giving your power away. The value in looking for perfection,
is
to get out of victimhood and reclaim your own power.. so long as you
are
holding onto attitudes of injustice you are clinging to victimhood.
Projecting victimhood onto others does not empower them, like seeing
them
as Gods of their own lives will.
It just seems to me that the Natives are so attached to their
victimhood, that at this point they have become their own worst enemy.
I remember when I was a teenager, a local native committed suicide
to
protest native injustices.. and to me it just seemed so very stupid.
What
made him feel that he could serve his cause better by dying at his own
hand, than by living and working to change the status quo? No white
man
killed him, he killed himself.. while pointing a finger at what had
been
done to him. Weird. It made no sense to me, and still makes no sense.
This kind of action makes no sense to me either. I am still confused
about allot of things. It will work through.
> As for all the others killing each other in the past. I haven't
gotten
>involved in those fights as I do not know the histories as well as I
know this
>one. You would think that we would learn at some point not to resolve
our
>conflicts through killing each other. Will we ever learn from the
past or is
>this type of interaction forever a part of the human condition?
From what Goddess has told me, it is just part of us, and will
always be
with us.
It will always be there? Why? I guess because it is part of the reason
we come here. to experience it all.
I remember, a relationship I was in, that was so full of conflict..
my
beloved just seemed to get off on arguing.. and in the midst of one
argument, very frustrated with the futility of it all and just wanting
peace, I looked around, as a Shaman will, for the environment to give
me
some answers. My glance fell on the TV, with the sound turned down was
some
episode of one of the Star Treks.. a war between spaceships, one of
them
blowing the other up in a colorful, gorgeous fiery explosion against
the
starry backdrop of the eternal Void.. beautiful.. destruction..
conflict
that was indeed a roleplay, TV not real, our metaphor for Maya.. and
Goddess whispering to me that conflict is human, and will always be.
Is it just a part of the game and at the level of the soul it isn't a
big deal?
I'm using Star Trek as a metaphor, because it represents an ideal
of
human evolution.. the Prime Directive, peaceful contact with other
interplanetary cultures.. but when push comes to shove, out come the
photon
torpedoes. So long as there are humans, there will be conflict.
Peaceful
conflict, like our discussion, or escalated conflict.
> I don't know
Just look at it.
> > For all of the noise Natives make about injustice, I really
don't know
> > any who want to give up cars, TVs, central heating and shopping
malls, to
> > go back to living in tents and hunting by bow and arrow.... any
more than
> > us Europeans want to all migrate back to Europe, or the Hebrews
wanted to
> > give up the aqueducts and medicine of the Romans... change is the
only
> > constant.
>
> Why do they have to give up all these things that has been brought
about by
>and through their own genocide? Why do they have to go back to living
the way
>they were before the white man came? What does this have to do with
>healing the divisions between people.
It is about victim hood, and acknowledgement going both ways.
There is a wonderful scene in Monty Python's "Life of Brian"
where the
Hebrew rebels are drawing up an ultimatum to give to the Romans, about
how
oppressed they are.. and how they want to Romans to go home and take
all
their stuff with them.. and one rebel pipes up, "Except for the
aqueducts".. an another says "and the medicine".. the scene goes on,
so
that in the end their ultimatum rejects the Romans, but wants to keep
all
of the advances and gifts of Roman occupation. Funny-absurd.. the
truth
makes me laugh.
I see a parallel with what you are saying about the natives..
I was invited by a native to visit him on Vancouver Island.. He
kept
complaining to me about ho the Natives were so hard done by because of
the
white folks.. yet, he drove me around in a fancy 4x4, he was getting
an
education at the Governments expense that I could not afford, he lived
in a
house much larger than mine, and his overall standard of living was
much
higher. He was headed off to Harvard, next... on a special scholarship
for
native people.
I did not covet his wealth, but I could not understand his
complaints.
It made me shake my head that he clung so aggressively to his
victimhood
yet denied the obvious truth that his actual standard of living had
been
much improved by the evolution.
It is the same, in my mind as what I am hearing from you. You
don't
want to give back the abundance and go back to living the old ways,
yet
still you complain about how badly natives were treated and how there
has
to be acknowledgement.. How much acknowledgement do you need?
Everybody
knows what happened to the natives, and why. Reparations are being
made all
over the world.
Victimhood does not heal, gratitude heals.
Ok how's this- I am grateful for my victimhood because it has brought me
to this place and to this conversation with you.
:))) heheh.... I'm chewing through what you said above.
> For me the above has no relevance to what is being asked. Of course
> change is constant but can't we acknowledge the fact that change has
> brought much more prosperity for some than others. It has brought
>much more death to some than others. Why does one group have to
suffer
>genocide?
Hey, I was a burned witch in another life.. My Grandfather was
lucky,
he got out of Germany avoiding conscription for WW1.. but the most of
the
rest of his family ended up in Siberia, because of Stalin. The natives
don't have a monopoly on suffering and genocide.
My other Grandfather got England's highest military honor, an OBE
for
his service as a Cavalry officer in the Boer war.. rewards for
genocide....
and a soldier's bonus of a chunk of Canada. The land bonus turned out
to
be worthless, and was abandoned in favor of more fertile land
elsewhere...purchased by my Grandmother's family jewels. My Dad grew
up
exposed to the Native spirituality of the hired farmhands.. which
influenced him a lot more than his anglican upbringing.. White folks
these
days think native spirituality is beautiful.. but we are largely
excluded
from it because of grudges held against us from the past. Animals are
territorial too, but they don't get into victimhood or hold grudges..
What is unique, is that there is reparations being made to the
conquered, and those suicide rates..
> This I just don't get. Is there really such a thing as a win, win
>situation when it comes to this kind of stuff?
Not if one side continues to insist that it is the loser... and
put no
value on what was gained. There can be no win/win if one side insists
that
they are losing, now matter how much they are given. It just turns
into
lose/lose.
> Do we need to continue
>interacting in this way because this is just the way it is? I guess
again
>I am
>looking at it from the lower chakras and maybe as I move beyond it
will make
>more sense but for now it sure doesn't.
You don't seem to have much motive to look for perfection.
How do you know? There are times when I see perfection all around me and
even in the events that we are talking about.
I think recently I have been stuck and needed some help getting out.
> So the culture of the conquered has an impact on those who have
done the
>conquering.
You bet.
>Ok...... Doesn't our DNA show that we all came from Africa? This is
another
>subject.
It is another subject.. but if you want to make that argument,
then
there is no race issue.. so why keep insisting that there is?
Back in Africa, warring tribes are killing each other off, far
more
than any white influence ever did, even including plagues... not
including
AIDS.. which is killing without discrimination to race. There are
tribes
fighting tribal wars that have continued for a thousand years, only
now
they have machine guns and grenades.
Yup, we all came out of Africa, and in the US there are big issues
about
"Racial profiling".. statistically, African DNA seems to carry a much
more
violent temperament, and it cannot all be pinned on white racism in
the courts.
Yeah, I know.. Hitler.. white folks can be violent too.
Here in Vancouver there are no black gangs.. only asian gangs and
Nazi
skinheads.
> > Round and round it goes.. an enormous cultural exchange, that
is based
> > on the elementary idea of "survival of the fittest", which goes
beyond
> > races and into the intangible realm of ideas.. survival of the
most
> > workable ideas! That is the true essence of human evolution, and
it
> > transcends race.
>
> Is it really the true essence of human evolution?
It seems to be, based on any study of history..
Not sure that I agree with this but I don't have any statistics to back
it up.
> > To be more specific about the big picture, there have been
stone
> > markings and artifacts found in North America, in ancient Egyptian
> > hieroglyphics and in the alphabet of Ogham, of the Celts.. this
information
> > is largely suppressed by the native population, as it goes against
their
> > claims to be "First Nations". However, a closer look at Native
beliefs that
> > shaped the constitution, their tribal organization shows that they
bear an
> > uncanny resemblance to those of the early Celts. The Celts had a
similar
> > arrangement of tribes, and that is why they could not band
together to
> > fight the Romans, any more than the North American Indians could
band
> > together to fight the whites. The story of Vercingetorix and
Little Big
> > Horn have a lot more in common than would appear, at a casual
glance.
>
> I know nothing about this .
Of course you don't.. why would you want to look for such
information
that might contradict your cherished ideas of "first nations"
victimhood?
If you want to find the information it is out there.. Actively being
repressed by First Nations interests.
I didn't even know that this kind of information was out there. How
would I known to look. Now I do so I will check it
out.
> > It is entirely possible that the people we call "natives" were
actually
> > not the "First nations", but that they wiped out other
races/cultures who
> > were here first. Why did Montezuma think the Conquistadors were
the return
> > of Quetzacoatl? Because they fit the description.. another clue
about who
> > the "first nations" might truly have been... but at present we
cannot truly
> > know, any more than we can know if an earlier Celtic or Atlantean
> > occupation might have been preceded by some other race.
>
>Maybe. I don't know.
Do you want to know?
Yes.
> Why does there have to be guilt?
Why indeed? What is the purpose of blame, then? The two generally
go
together.. that is the whole issue of injustice, is it not? Right and
wrong, guilt and blame. You want acknowledgement of guilt from the
white
conquerors.. there has been plenty of that, already. I ask you, why
does
there have to be guilt?
I'll think more about this.
> :))) Thank you for taking the time.
>Gives me more to chew on. With Love, Vickie
You are welcome.. Blessings!
Vickie
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