To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/12/04 12:17
Subject: Re: [K-list] Re: * a "force"
From: jb
On 2000/12/04 12:17, jb posted thus to the K-list:
On 12/4/00 at 10:13 AM Wim Borsboom wrote:
°Dear Jan,
°
°You wrote:
°> I have yet to meet the first one who won't show
°> even the slightest trace of irritation, when
°> "pushed real hard". The question then,
°> is there a free choice not to get irritated?
°
°You may try me, Jan.
Dear Wim - I won't - knowing the limits to "where" sentience can be stretched without fainting. My Achilles' heel has always been, seeing others suffer...
°
°(Did you see "Dirty rotten scoundrels" with Steve Martin? He gets
°whipped :-))
No, I can't identify with the majority of characters in a film since quite some years - so I hardly see a movie anymore :)
°But seriously :)
°About physical and psychological thresholds?
°That is something that changed with me at the end of K's reorigination
°process when the flow of nectar / ambrosia / amrita was reinstated.
°And I was utterly surprised.
The threshold can get "out of reach" but it isn't the end - all feelings pertaining to body can disappear altogether and then the issue of "threshold" no longer applies... Psychological threshold is easier to shift into the infinite - for instance if no entity remains as a "target".
°
°I handle any pain and pleasure without suffering or desire:
° cold, (of course I can freeze, but there is no discomfort :-]
° heat, (of course I can burn, but there is no suffering :-}
° haven't tried poison yet (of course I will pass on, but will I
°notice ?:)
° oh yes, I have tried a poison... white sugar (and I love it ;-)
°I simply cannot get irritated anymore :-(
°But I am willing to be tested on it. Could you try me? You would have to
°come over to Victoria, Vancouver Island though :-!
I can account for similar experiences, like having made salads out of plants, it appeared that even the goats won't touch :) They belong to the few poisonous plants of the islands but I didn't know that... As the only result was a loss of weight, I thought they were great for slimming down :) But regarding irritation, as a rule, one's "own" body may appear to be immune, but observing loved ones going through an ordeal is something different... Wouldn't that trigger a bit more than irritation?
°
°But hey, I am not one of those yogis who needs to convince anybody of
°their amrita by walking over a bed of fire, lying on a bed of pins
°or getting buried with a hand sticking up from the ground.
To convince, no, and apart from that, anyone can learn tricks and the human body is designed for adaptability... That is also the "result" of K.: adaptation to whatever situation...
°
°Indeed, it has to do with 'free choice', but a transformation of the
°meaning of it. 'Free will', but... the cessation of the need for it. The
°predilection of the fearless human is that free choice and free will are
°of no concern. As desire ceases while suffering ceases, the need to be
°free ceases simultaneously. That triple aspect (desire, suffering and
°escape) of the incomplete or wanting human becomes at once
°inconsequential, as one discovers that one never was inadequate, never
°lost happiness, never was unfree.That is the steady state of amrita.
°
When the mind is seen as the store-house of impressions, collected throughout one's wanderings, it also can be seen that these result in tendencies, to be activated, the moment the favorable opportunity will arise. What causes the sense of "free will" is identification - without the notion of "free will" the tendency will activate just as well. It could even be argued that without the sense of "free will" one actually is happier, effortlessly "going with the flow".
°Even if I wanted too, I cannot even have suffering or discomfort, just
°plainly too much work, a waste of energy... Why turning pain and
°pleasure into suffering and desire? Energy just will not flow that way
°anymore, the ducts are cauterized. Free choice' became to mean 'being
°free of having to choose', 'needing no choice', 'going willingly' with
°every dynamic in a non-resistive, non-objectionate, non-attached,
°non-involved way: equanimity.
°
The test would be to see loved ones suffering - most would actually feel what they would be going through. Call it suffering or pain, when not being affected, there would be no compassion.
Regarding choice, for instance, one's like/dislike regarding the taste of food is more or less "fixed". Being able to choose from a large variety of foods would result in taking what is "ordained" by this like/dislike. No such thing as "free choice".
°Action / reaction of physics is such 'free choice', nature does it all
°the time... even pool balls do it.
Causality is free choice??
°
°Nature has 'no choice but free choice'. It freely does what it cannot do
°otherwise.
To my knowledge, nature is "random" in a sense of unpredictability; when successful, the result of randomness continues. This is why bacteria didn't evolve yet there are complicated structures like humans.
°
°*Action / counter-action* (what suffering humans do) is NOT the same as
°*action / reaction* or *cause / effect*. Ever seen a pool ball turn
°around and stab the ball that it was hit by, in the back? Nature does
°not talk back. That would be action / counter action. One will not
°observe that in nature... only in humans... it is part of the illusion
°brought by desire / suffering / escape', not the reality of a priori
°completeness / joy / liberty.
No, instead of playing games I'm mostly outside - in nature. The sense of "free choice" or "will" could result from early childhood, repeatedly experiencing something causing extreme dislike, to the extent of a response of avoidance/rejection with all available means.
°
°Krishna has some good things to say on that.
°When we as humans return to our original nature, deliberation about free
°will and free choice is inconsequential.
That is true. But it is conveniently forgotten that must have been the case already before this "realization".
°
°Yes and humans can do it.
°Anyone, I am not special...
°K came may way,
°I just took it,
°No counter-activity,
°No suffering,
°No desire,
°No escape
°No more no.
°amrita.
°
°Love,
°Wim
Nowhere to go, nowhere to hide, yet going with the flow but no paradox in that...
Love,
Jan
°
°PS.
°Jan:
°> No problems with winter here - full summer,
°> sun, blue skies and 24C - and I
°> need both a nurse and a driver :)
°
°Jess:
°> Yeah, but what condition is your kitchen in?
°
°Wim:
°What a repartee by Jessica. I'm sure Jan's kitchen has Hot Chocolate
°spilled all over!
No, apart from fruits in abundance, tea, spices, herbs and honey, not much edible can be found :)
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