To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/08/03 15:08
Subject: Re: [K-list] Zen and Vajrayana
From: joe Wood
On 2000/08/03 15:08, joe Wood posted thus to the K-list:
Mark - in your post, you noted:
"It is important to look at the cultures where each was developed."
Certainly this is true. I think any scholar of world religions comes to see
the essential same message draped with trappings intended to deliver that
message to a particular group and time.
However, you also note that:
"Zen is Japanese, and reflects the needs of what was a highly developed, as
well as isolated and extremely violent society."
As I am sure you are aware (but forgot to mention), zen is merely the
japanese term for the school that has its roots in siddhartha's teachings.
According to zen tradition, the major cause for buddhism spreading beyond
india to china and the rest of the far east was the arrival of the monk
Bodhidharma in southern china in the 6th century (apprx.) A.D. Zen's roots
were in china for 600 years before really expanding to japan. As you may
also be aware, 'zen' is a (help me with my technical 'sounds-like' term
here) transliteration(?) of the chinese term "ch'an" which is itself a
transliteration of sanskrit 'dhyana' for meditiation.
As for your comment that "I have heard many people say that 'zen' (ie.
literally, sitting/meditation) is the beginning and vajrayana is the 'end'
(the end goal, the exit from this form of life) of such practices.", i can
assure you that no zen practitioner would have said such a thing, though I
have myself heard more than a handful of tibetan practicitioners, including
a couple from tibet/india, refer to zen in such a way. personally, i find
all such distinctions a distraction from the dharma. for those of the
ch'an/zen lineage to look at hiniayana buddhists and say that Hinayana is
the lesser or slower vehicle, fr those of the 'sudden school' of ch'an to
deride those of the 'gradual school,' and for the vajrayana school to
consider itself the 'lightning' school in relation to other schools - all
are incorrect.
vajrayana consists of many elements certainly NOT taught by buddha in his
lifetime. the hindu pantheon received no recognition in his writings that i
have uncovered, although later proponents of buddhism certainly incorporated
them.
you also wrote: "Zen is also focussed on what is self through the stripping
away of exteriors; whereas vajrayana is concerned with discovering self via
the identification with various planes of consciousness, development of
powers, and their ultimate renunciation. Very different practices indeed."
Sure, zen cuts to the chase, the elimination of barriers to the realization
of self. Vajrayana first creates many more barriers and objects of external
identification which must eventually be eliminated as well. As for
development of powers, the zen approach can best be illustrated (by my
limited capacity) in the following 2 stories. as i don't remember the
monks' names, please allow me some creative license ;) :
Zen Fools and Wild Hermits
The zen fool geoff approached a river. When he got there, the wild hermit
mark of the valley was waiting in the boat to row geoff across. halfway
across the river, in the midst of a discussion about miracles and the
relative mojo of their practices, the wild hermit conjured up a fiery
apparition of kali, saying "can your school do miracles like this?"
The zen fool geoff whipped it out and pissed on the flames, putting them
out. "Here is a miracle issuing from my own body," he said.
Zen Fools and Foolish Zenners
(As i understand this story a little less, i won't use my creative names.)
Three monks approached a river. The first to arrive picked up the hem of
his garments and walked to the other side on the surface of the water, where
he yelled at the other two to come on across.
The second monk looked to the third monk and said "If i had known he was
that kind of a fellow, I would have broken his legs."
Food for thought
no wrong or right
no dharma joust
in here tonight.
geoff
PS - many zen masters do miracles, but only in limited circumstances so that
their followers (and innocent bystanders) do not become attached to them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-
1/6630/6/_/680797/_/965340510/
--------------------------------------------------------------------|e>-
DISCLAIMER!
Home | Archive Index | Search the archives | Subscribe
K. List FAQ | Kundalini FAQs | Signs and Symptoms | Awakening Experiences | K. list Polls | Member Essays | Meditations | List Topics | Art Gallery | Cybrary | Sitemap | Email the moderators.
symbol.