To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/08/02 02:27
Subject: Re: [K-list] Nature of psychic phenomena
From: Wim Borsboom
On 2000/08/02 02:27, Wim Borsboom posted thus to the K-list:
Dear Mark
With all due respect Mark, your comments in this reply post as well as many of your previous posts are very book based, 'esoteric studies' like. Seems more like fodder from and for the mind than the stuff of experience. Kundalites are not dealing with fodder, it is energy current, real stuff, that is cursing through their complex integrating systems rather than titbits of anecdotal knowledge or quotes and terminology. Why don't you tell us about YOUR Kundalini *experiences*, rather than "commenting" on our authentique, unique, organic and spiritual wherewithals of trials and tribulations, victories and celebrations..., It could be that I have missed your personal accounts in your previous posts, in that case I apologize profusely.
Not that your comments are not valuable, you are welcome to it, but I feel that I have to register my discontent, what I experience with their impact on me. There is something in the way you comment that upsets me just slightly, every time a little bit more. More like tiny pin pricks that build up into a reaction and a big ouch. Your comments are welcome, but I feel that people on this list are not primarily waiting for that, I for one am not, of course I can not speak for others. But it is recognition and corroboration that counts for me, compassion, empathy and understanding.
The way I comment on you now is very much the same way you comment on me but granted, with additional aggravated ire... I have to do this, I feel you are slighting me, and I won't allow it.
So here you are:
"You are so coolly uncommitted... show us your pain and shit OK? Not institutionalised and societized dribble. I show you my shit (as I am doing now) and bliss (as I have done), you show me yours. I do not write posts in order to be commented upon, that is the very thing that got me into trouble in early adolescent life in the first place, commentary, commentary, non stop commentary."
What you are doing is depersonalizing, objectifying and quantifying personal experiences of what K. does to a being going through the ravages and ecstasies of K.'s cathartic processes. You are using the rather common arrogance, coolness and attitudes of the uncommitted aloof scholar who is afraid of showing enthusiasm lest his/her heart will show the inner pains and blisses from the hidden chambers of his/her rended heart.
All that such behaviour is good for, is for *interpretation not understanding* of other people's experiences, in order to quantify them, fill in stats, categorize them, to file them away, box them in, becoming material for discussion papers. Neat for the scientific method and some clever articles to be published, and only good to uphold the tenuous esteem system of a group of equally unfeeling peers.... Only good enough for that, but not good for the soul... your soul.
Ask yourself, if for you, a Kundalite is more a case study than a living being in pain, anguish, happiness or bliss. Check it out, OK?
Leaving yourself at a safe, seemingly harmless distance, while you are so objectively observing may be protective for you but it harms me a little every time. It feels like the way men can objectify women and see them only in the narrow terms of sexy receptacles which can stimulate their short distance sex machines. Have done all that in a previous part of my life, actually it was worse with me as I had paedophile tendencies. People got sick of me until I got sick of myself... Boy, did I need someone like me now in those days, who would shoot me down so that I would see my the fallacy in my behaviour.
So may I serve that purpose... I'm telling you off... OK?!
You've got lots of external knowledge, you quote well, but internal knowledge has not been showing through.
There is something else too, I already know everything that you are bringing up, all that is old hat, I have read as much as you have, I am sure. You should see my library from my knowledge gathering days, the days when I would impress myself by thinking that I impressed others with my erudition. I hope that for once I can be the one who can tell about a different slant on things, from experience, without having to argue it...and refer to authorities and books to back me up... I have nothing to loose
I wrote:
> My second insight was the meaning of the "word" Kundalini... <snip>Then
> the word Kundalini started vibrating, glistening and glittering
> scintillatingly in front of my eyes, broke up and exploded so to say into two
> parts "Kunda" and "Linga".
You wrote:
>>This kind of adhoc verbage is known as the 'language of the birds' and
represents a kind of 'phonetic qabala' seen in Middle Eastern (and I assume
elsewhere) texts. It is a kind of spiritual pun working of off the idea of
'sounds like' rather than 'means' to get to a different meaning of a word.>>
I guess you have no room for the way Dan Winter cleverly uses his wordplays as revelatory tools. Phi-la-Del-phi-a-cream-chi-Ki Qi Keys. (My contribution to his craft.)
But that aside, I had the experience of a revelation not a pun kind of word play. I absolutely object to your interpretation of my vision, shame on you... I had the vision not you, you keep your intelligent hands off it, OK! If it was meant for you, you would have had the vision. Yes, I know, nana nana na, I'm bad.
If you would have had that same vision you would probably have botched it up into Jungian and Freudian dream interpretations, how dated that would be...
I know very well the kind of tiring wordplays like "live is evil spelled backwards" (reversal intended as a pun.)
In fact I know a man who is 'proving' by reverse engineering that the Basque language is the oldest language in the world and he uses exactly your phonetic kabala to derive all (older) languages from basque... be that as it may... he is my friend and I have not told him that his is a language of the birds... He might just be onto something.
You wrote:
>>is very useful for interpreting dreams where fused words or images appear.>>
See what I mean?
I wrote:
> Then at some intense timeless moment in this
> revealing experience some cosmic copulation,
> ejaculation and absorption took
> place between our good mother earth and
> this wonderfully powerful heaven of ours
You wrote:
>>This is seen in the Egyptian texts as the union of Geb (Earth) and Nuit
(Heaven/Sky) and is a purely phallic symbol where, she 'gets to be ontop'.
For better or worse,>>
Well thank you, I appreciate that you place my experience in context with the great myths, but what exactly do you mean by "for better or worse..."
There is one of those subtle pinpricks,
>> Aleister Crowley had a great deal to say about their
symbolic union and its uses in ritual practices.
> (Jesus used the term uranois for heavens. Wow, he knew a few things more
> than what is reported in the bible.)
You asked:
>>Could you please give a reference for this? >>
I have already written about some of my visions, visions are not like scientific theses that have to be cross referenced or corroborated by other similar experiments and or experiences by others for them to be relevant and true. It would be nice but it is not needed. Such is just the nature of a revelationary vision. That is difficult to accept in this sceptical and critical world, I guess... but it is not my problem. I know that what I see is true and I know the difference between an inner eye image, a thought form, a dream, an illusion, an hallucination, wishful thinking and a vision... have practiced it all my life.
You wrote:
>>Pardon my bluntness, but I didn't know there was a single 'Chinese culture' >>
Of course not, did I say that?
You wrote:
>> Also, if I remember my history, if we want to stay with the
Indian term 'kundalini', it was Indian monks that introduced
a great deal into China, thus forming the famous...>>
You are right, you remember your history well, but also remember that history is written in retrospect and that political distinctions are post-hoc inventions of politicians and historians with agendas coming out of their necks and questionable objectives up their sleeves. Historians create history. Real life just happens, me writing afterwards about what I happened to me in Hong Kong is creating a story, my story, history. While in fact, I was just asked 4 weeks ago if I liked Chinese food. I said: "Yes" and then I was invited to come, I had no inkling, even not while in the plane on my way, why exactly I was invited, I thought it was just to demonstrate the biofeedback machine that I seem to know so well and I thought it was just because someone had heard about my strange experiences and wanted to be entertained by them.
>>thus forming the famous Chinese systems of boxing (Kung Fu) so as to get their lazy 'muladhara' chakras off the rice mats and into shape. >>
I appreciate you humour and you probably wonder why I sound so upset, well I am not upset anymore, just writing all this gives me some great satisfaction but I do not really know yet, if at some point I will press the 'Send' button. Well, I tend to do that easily anyways so that is why you read this now. Me upset?... in fact writing this makes me less and less upset... Thanks for listening
>>China is no virgin either>>
Oh no, so true. But there are a lot of virgins now in Hong Kong... but that is a different subject.
> From that I produced slides that showed the creative
> energies converging into each other showing the traditional colours of the
> chakras (ROYGBIV) producing eventually the chakra paintings that Leadbeater
> so well depicted in 1927.
>>Traditional by who? >>
OK, a tradition of close to a hundred years in oral and written tradition, but not in the tradition of visionaries and painters especially European from the Renaissance and on.
>>There are at least four (4) differing views on color and
location presented in "Layayoga" by Shyam Sundat Goswami (Inner Traditions).
There are at least two (2) dozen different color, number, and location
schemes that I've seen. >>
You are definitely a book kind of guy, why don't try to see for yourself...
>>The ROYGBIV order is simply following the color scale
and is a recent 'contribution' to the chakra system. If anyone has a source
for it more than 100 years old, I'd be interested in seeing it.>>
Hey Mark, the source is light and light is as old (if we may use that term, because light is not affected by time, light creates time) light is as 'old' as the universe. But I am not going to divulge my light theory (which in fact undoes the linearity of the ROYGBIV sequence and adds multidimensional elements to it ) to you just yet...
When you don't see you can not believe, and when you see you don't have to believe... but that is something else again.
>>Sorry, but Leadbeater (a probable paedophile) is not the best source to be
quoting>>
Such a remark is unacceptable. Probable? Again shame on you, Mark. We have had enough discussion here on the list about Leadbeater and other probable(?) paedophiles.
Remember it is the people with an agenda who write the history books, history is only a story... real life is too complex to fit into the bound contexts of history especially if probabilities are going to be a deciding factor in allowing facts... as you try to do ... such as whether Leadbeater really saw or not.... dubious in your estimation because he happened to also see young men with loving eyes and was aware of how to raise Kundalini energy and was very much aware of the psycho-erotic-sexual character of Kundalini energy ?
I place Leadbeater very high because what I am. And what I have seen and see, I saw corroborated in his writings and the paintings he had done... His writings, however flawed they may be in some respect pulled me through one of my most difficult K periods... and I'm alive now... and that as full as I can be at this moment...
> So... "Kundalini" means way more than "coiled up serpent". I have written
> before about the symbology of the serpent in the story of the development
of
> Kundalini and the mythical legend of Adam and Eve. The reasons for the
> connection of the serpent symbology with Kundalini is rather complex... To
> just say "coiled up serpent" is not giving the reality behind this powerful
> image enough credence and esteem.
>>In Genesis, the idea of the serpent also relates to the zodiac, or the means
by where the cosmic forces (of the seven planets- or psychic centers) relate
to the material world (the Elements). It starts 'coiled' or as the
Oroborous, the snake eating its tail, but then 'uncoils' and rests on the
head of Adam (humanity, 'man' , 'redman', etc). I don't think Vivikenanda,
nor I in quoting him, was suggesting that all the terms means is 'coiled
serpent'.>>
You may want to wade through the posts I wrote some time ago, it touches deeply upon some of the stuff you mention.
The weird stuff is all true...
You know why I know?
Because I have seen!
See if you can see also,
But not by reading
By surrendering to experience.
Until you know it all by knowing nothing.
Love,
Wim
To see some of the files you might be interested in:
http://www.onelist.com/files/Kundalini-Gateway/Wims/
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