To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/07/11 12:15
Subject: Re: [K-list] The Botttom Line - and The Path
From: Gcwein1111
On 2000/07/11 12:15, Gcwein1111 posted thus to the K-list:
In a message dated 7/9/00 6:17:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
MystressATnospamkundalini-gateway.org writes:
<<
A Faith based position:
There is nothing that happens that is not Divine will.
Death is too important a transition ever to be an "accident".
Abusers and victims make a soul agreement as to the roles they will play
for each other, before incarnating. The purpose of these roles is shaping
uniqueness, evolving personalities. Challenge provokes creativity.
Limitless manifestation suggest that all roles that can be thought
of, must manifest, somewhere. Unconditional love suggests that all
experiences have value, because everything is Goddess experiencing Herself.
Goddess doesn't judge. We do.. as part of the roles we play, in
service to limitless manifestation.
Well ......... you two cannot see eye to
eye because you are each looking at the concept from different chakras.
Describing a different universe.
David is taking the higher chakra view that All is perception, Jerry
is arguing on behalf of the "reality" based second chakra issues of
judgment and practicality on a physical level where there are murderers and
victims and the lines are black and white.
It appears that Jerry has chosen this attitude because he likes to
play Devil's advocate... I've been known to do that, myself.. ;)
Blessings..
>>
l tried to express my thoughts twice yesterday on this post, and stopped
each time after writing several paragraphs, realizing it didn't feel right.
lt touched on areas that go pretty deep -- that have many layers for me. ln
my post "lt's about Truth, Not Murder" a couple days ago l tried to explain
my thing about truth, which - rightly or wrongly - is why l've argued as l
have. lt was a beginning, altho it didn't hit on everything. As Angelique
says, l often argue positions that one could call lower chakra based. But the
higher chakra perspective is important to me too, of course.
l've talked
before about how my k has been pretty devoid of mystical experience. Not only
that, but it's caused physical problems that have impacted me in many ways,
significantly limiting me socially, sexually, in not feeling able to travel
and in having to discontinue all spiritual practice for several years now. lt
continues to progress in its own mysterious way, but the effects persist,
including the impact this has had on my spiritual approach.
One of the effects of my k experience has
been to put me in a no man's land of sorts, which l imagine most experiencers
can relate to in some way. For me, it means that l feel a sense of separation
from non k people who can't understand what's happened and its effect on me.
l also feel removed somewhat from k people who,unlike me, feel they've been
granted access to a higher realm, ie a view from the higher chakras. Yeah,
l've had to deal with the feeling that l got all the shit that comes with k
but not the goodies. K has prevented me from actively living or exploring
either the upper or lower chakra perspectives. Please note: this ain't a
complaint -- l've learned how much worse it could be -- just an explanation.
l've read the higher chakra stuff, of course, to the point of ad
nauseum. But l've had very little experience of it, and as l said in my
*Truth* post, l tend to have faith only in what l experience, and l prefer to
speak from what l've experienced. So l don't talk upper chakra view very
much.
l've wondered if my k
experience hasn't gone this way in order to prevent me from getting too
carried away with the mystical or upper chakra view. After all, this was the
view l coveted, long before my k arose, and this was the realm to which l was
sure l would gain access when k did begin. l'd already avidly studied and
traveled widely in search of it for years before k awakened in 92.
When l consider k's impact, it comes down primarily to these
two things: one, that l've been forced against my conscious desire to fully
consider the physical plane at all times, like it or not; two, that as a
lifelong doubter l've been forced to try to nurture faith without benefit of
direct mystical experience. As a wildly romantic dreamer, one who has sought
transcendance beyond the limitations of the physical world my entire life,
the psychic pain has been intense and never ending. Of course, the beauty
of feeling increased compassion and interconnectedness at a deeper level as a
result of this suffering has also been intense.
So, l
argue the lower chakra perspective partly because k has continually directed
my focus toward the physical plane. Life on the physical plane is filled with
mind numbing horror that l feel very, very few people permit themselves to
face. lnstead we ignore it or use any number of devices to escape from it,
and the higher chakra perspective is unquestionably the most powerful and
eloquent tool of escape there is. (Of course, it's also the most powerful
tool for coping with it.) That doesn't mean that l wish to question the
validity of this view -- altho l'm a doubter and lack direct mystical
experience, it's as important to me as anyone else --but rather whether it's
being used at any given time to escape, deny or trivialize what we can't bear
to see.
Unfortunately its track record is far from spotless. We've seen chronic
instances of teachers espousing an upper chakra view orientation that have
apparently forgotten where they came from. At its worst, this view carries
the danger of monstrously inflating the ego and launching huge, destructive
power trips, leaving the inevitable clutter of bodies in its wake. Of course,
from the higher chakra perspective, all the shit that happens to third
persons is simply part of the grand cosmic scheme: no *real* harm done. But
to most people like myself, who are not privy to this perspective, this upper
chakra rationale just doesn't wash. Maybe l'll experience it for myself at
some point and feel differently, but that's not where l -- and most others on
this planet -- are now.
Of course, no one on this list has embarked on any dangerous power trip via
the upper chakra view to my knowledge. But there's still a smaller danger, of
seeing things on the physical plane less clearly, less compassionately, if
one lives from the perspective that the incomprehensible suffering on this
plane isn't *real*; that those who are suffering or struggling are doing so
primarily because they don't *get it* or for some other self serving
spiritual reason. We cannot help but be shaped by our experiences, and my
long, brutal, thankless k experience has made it very difficult for me to
trivialize suffering or lack compassion.
lt's been said that the spiritual path is a three legged stool. The legs are
faith, doubt and effort. According to this view doubt is a necessary part of
the path, fueling the need for effort. Knowing that for me doubt has always
come so much easier than faith, l've relied on effort. That's why l looked to
eastern esoteric paths in the first place. l thought they offered the best
vehicles and rewards for effort. Effort has always been part of my make-up
anyway, as l've been working on myself internally most of my adult life.
Perhaps one thing l was
destined to learn from k is what to do when all effort is futile. Every place
l turned for help ended up being a blind alley. No teacher or teaching could
help, no doctor or healer could help, no medicine or herb could help -- there
was no technique that k would even let me use. l had been pretty successful
at everything l'd done previous to k, but now there was nothing l or anyone
else could do. So what do you do when you're desperate to exert effort -- any
kind of effort -- but there is no effort that can be put to any useful
purpose? When any form of effort only makes matters worse? All l could do
was try to get thru each day and maintain as much faith and hope as l could.
lt's not very different today.
As someone who still
desperately wants to believe in upper chakra perspectives, there's one more
thing that concerns me. What does it mean when the upper chakra views of
various mystics contradict each other? There's a story -- don't know if it's
true or not --- a renowned western mystic died suddenly at an
interdenominational spiritual retreat. Two days later a Tibetan lama
approached his widow and said,"l've seen your husband. He didn't grasp
dharmakaya at the first opportunity, but he's making his way thru the bardo
and is doing fine." An hour later a Catholic monk approached her and said,
"l've seen your husband. He's with the Lord Jesus and is being escorted up to
heaven." An hour later a Hindu approached her and said, "l've seen your
husband. He's with Krishna and the gopis....."
l
used to do several retreats at Omega lnstitute every summer, often back to
back. One year l did a Tibetan retreat and had several conversations with a
tulku about reincarnation, a subject in which he was quite insightful. ln the
next retreat my own sufi teacher, whom l respected greatly, conveyed the
teachings of the saint Hazrat lnayat Kahn which explicitly teach a contrary
view. Murshid's book on the subject is quite definitive on the subject, in
fact. lt's a pretty interesting cosmology that l'd be glad to share some
other time--one that's eerily similar to reincarnation but definitely
different.
l'm also reminded of the conflicts when l think of the visitations associated
with Lourdes, Fatima and several others in the Catholic faith. l'm not
Catholic, but these have appeared very genuine to me. The Virgin Mary, or
whoever it is, never fails to talk about praying for sinners, etc., certainly
not kosher talk from an upper chakra nondualist perspective, right??
So ... l'm with Llewellyn in
wanting to see a unified field theory of spirituality. lt would sure help a
pathetic lower chakra hacker like me and would boost my confidence in upper
chakra perspectives :))
jerry
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