To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/07/08 06:31
Subject: Re: [K-list] Re: lt's About Truth, Not Murder
From: Gcwein1111
On 2000/07/08 06:31, Gcwein1111 posted thus to the K-list:
In a message dated 7/7/00 10:17:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, druoutATnospamaol.com
writes:
<< You detest killing so much that you don't distinguish
convicted murderer from judge and jury who punish. They (and 70% of the
American people) detest killing so much that they want the worst killers to
pay the ultimate price for it. l know you don't see it this way, but l
don't
see all that much difference between their hatred of killing and yours. A
different way of dealing with it, for sure, but the hatred is the same.
>>
(H)Wow! Did I give such an impassioned impression? I used the words
"chilled"
and "reprehensible." How did that get translated into detesting and
hatred?
(J) Well, this wasn't a skillful paraphrase at all by me
-- this didn't get across well what l meant to say -- Sorry -- altho, l don't
see it as a big stretch if someone describes an act as chilling and
reprehensible to say that they detest it. But my main point here was not to
characterize your feelings as hatred, but rather to say that the people whose
actions you are so condemning (the judges, juries, lawmakers, prosecutors and
70% of the population who support them) are to a large degree motivated by
feelings about murder that are very similar to yours: they find it
reprehensible too. (Altho obviously their solution is much different.) On the
other hand, those being executed -- the ones whose actions you compare to
those of the above individuals -- do not apparently feel that murder is
reprehensible. That was my point.
<<lf we begin with the view that any form
of killing is utterly detestable and unthinkable under any and all
circumstances, then a clinical killing by the state can infuriate more than
any other. >>
(H)This isn't really my point of view. If it were I imagine I'd be awfully
angry at God/dess for taking so much life. I think killing under some
circumstances is understandable.
(J) Other than self defense? Such as??
(H)Oh I distinguish between guilt and innocence all right. I just find both
perpetrators equally guilty in the case of capital punishment.
(J)Yes... . and l have repeated several times that l too feel
these people are for the most part misguided and wrong, but they are not
murderers. (Yeah, l know you haven't actually called them murderers, but
that's what your statement comes down to.) They are punishing murderers who
have been adjudicated guilty in a court of law. The punishment may be a
miscarriage of justice, which is bad enough -- it may indeed be tragic, but
it's not murder. Of course Hitler had courts of law. Are we able to
discriminate between his and ours, or do we mindlessly lump it all together?
<<You say you have a "60's
leftist position". Well, l'm a liberal everyplace else but on spiritual
lists like this, where l keep hearing outrageous statements that cause me to
react and take positions that seem eerily conservative.>>
(H)Are they really so outrageous? I think they are just coming from a
different
perspective. You seem to see things in terms of good and evil. Justice and
injustice. Top dog and underdog. I incline more to David's and Angelique's
positons...
(J) Well, ha ha, they are outrageous and they definitely do come
from a different perspective. As a rule, l definitely do NOT think in terms
of good and evil or justice and injustice.. l practiced law for 25 yrs
representing, among other things, criminal defendants. Do you think l coulda
done that, trying to help murderers, thieves, etc if l was some moral
crusader against evil or obsessed with justice for chrissakes??? Several
times in my career l could have been a prosecutor. No way. l never wanted any
part of it. l'm too independent minded for that and never wanted to prosecute
people.
Have you asked yourself why l've been arguing against your point of view even
tho, like you, l'm an opponent of capital punishment??? To me, it's not even
about the death penalty -- it's about truth. l don't like capital punishment
either, Hillary, but there's more to the other point of view than simply
writing it(and its proponents) off as murder(ers).
l'm not a moral crusader or an
idealogue. l'm a truth seeker. My inclination is to see subtle shades of
gray, not black and white. l drove a therapist nuts with this years ago -- he
was brilliant and an excellent therapist, but his goal was being able to
function maximally in society, while mine was deeper. lt took us a while to
realize we were mismatched. He finally shook his head, laughed and said he'd
never met anyone who had a "thing" for the truth like me. l'd never thought
of it like that before.
Now, l'm not saying this is always good -- and l'm
not saying there's only one "truth" cause of course there can be many. Every
"good" quality has its shadow side -- a truth seeker could see only his
"truth" and self righteously ignore all others -- that is, if he strays and
ceases being the real thing. So l have to be vigilant like everyone else. l
have excesses like anyone else. l'm just saying l'm alot more about searching
for the truth (whatever that is) than about good/evil, justice/injustice,etc.
l think you (as well as others) have misunderstood my position in some
of these list food fights. With the argument over Sai Baba and spiritual
teachers, that wasn't primarily about my moral outrage or anger toward SB,
who l could care less about. lf l felt any anger, it was about people not
wanting to see the truth. That's why l said many times: forget the spiritual
cliches and spiritual "rules" -- let's just look at the facts on a case by
case basis and apply common sense. lt was clear to me that many didn't want
to do that, and that's what got me going. lt was about being willing to look
at the truth rather than being in denial.
Now, does that mean the facts are all that count? Of course not. l said at
the time there were all kinds of interesting questions about fallen teachers
to look at. l didn't see it as a black and white thing. But if you start off
by denying the facts -- if you begin with denial of what is true -- you never
even get to the interesting questions. l think the same thing is true with
capital punishment. lt's hard to learn or resolve anything if people on one
side are calling or implying that those on the other side are murderers,
saying they're no better than a sociopathic thug who cuts someone's throat
and throws them in a river.
You go
back to the 60's. Well, what did we learn from Viet Nam? Very little, because
people were too busy shouting at each other to listen and consider the other
point of view. lf you were for the war you were a nazi, if you were against
it you were a commie. There were surely subtle truths that no one was able to
grasp amid all the labeling. Typically for me, l thought both sides were full
of shit about Viet Nam, misrepresenting the facts to serve their positions,
but l agreed primarily with the left in wanting to end it.
The same thing could be said about the other
great issue of the 60's: civil rights. Forty years later you still can't have
a discussion about race in this country, partly because anyone who's
politically incorrect is called a racist. l support affirmative action, etc,
but l know it's possible not to without being a racist. But obsession with
the R word and use of it for intimidation purposes makes for no dialogue and
no resolution.
The same thing happens with issues like capital punishment when you
imply that good people who disagree with you are either murderers or are no
better than such because they're supporting it. You distort the truth and
make a true, rational resolution that much more difficult. So l say drop the
M word.
You think l would've lasted this long on this
list if l were a good vs evil thinker? l have friends who left right away, as
soon as they looked at Angelique's website and saw the dominatrix, S&M stuff
or as soon as they read her posts. l've said from the start that l don't
understand or relate to A's approach at all. K screwed me up sexually right
from the start and l still can't have a normal sex life, so the
sexual/tantric approach to k is off limits to me in that respect, plus the
fact that l wouldnt resonate to it anyway. So am l wary of Angelique's
approach and some of the things l've heard her say? Absolutely. But l've also
seen her say alot of things that have appeared extremely sensible, and l've
seen evidence that she's helped people,so altho l don't really trust it or
feel drawn to it, l don't judge her, which has actually pissed some friends
off. l don't judge things l'm not qualified to judge. That distinguishes me
from most people, l think. l've always felt comfortable in that place of not
knowing.
l've always approached the spiritual path as l have everything else: with an
open mind and an open heart; from the perspective of learning from
experience. l never claim to know anything spiritually l haven't experienced
myself, and l insist on experience being my teacher. l've learned to regard
everything with a healthy skepticism. l'm wary of statements that
exhuberantly proclaim how great k is. l'm wary of statements by fellow k
sufferers about how terrible k is. l'm wary of people who trash teachers. l'm
wary of people who whitewash teachers. l'm wary of optimists. l'm wary of
pessimists. l'm Doubting Thomas. lt's a bitch. But he ultimately made it. So
can l.
My first
spiritual teacher used to repeat that the most important thing on the path
is common sense. l was totally unimpressed when he said it. l used to
think,"l came all the way to lndia to hear this? Anyone could say this." l've
come to feel more and more over the years that he was right, as l've seen
spiritual aspirants delude themselves with high spiritual axioms and
techniques, using them to deflect and hide from life's pain. God knows l've
been tempted by it myself -- it's impossible not to be. l may never be a
great mystic (altho l won't stop hoping), but l think l'll always be honest
with myself and have common sense. l'm not saying you or anyone else is
different, but this is who l am.
love,
jerry
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