To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/07/06 01:14
Subject: Re: [K-list] Breaking up is hard to do.
From: Wim Borsboom
On 2000/07/06 01:14, Wim Borsboom posted thus to the K-list:
Dear Lynda,
You wrote:
>My heart is pounding so I will try to put in to words what I am feeling.
I know what that pounding feels like, as I often had reactions like yours to
words that were written and said to me... After too many occurrences though,
it got me to think about the dynamics of it all. Eventually (after I could
not ignore anymore that the latest bringer of the hurtful message was NOT
the person who maliciously hurt me, was not even trying to hurt me, in fact
was the very person who tried to set me free) so eventually I discovered
that I got keyed in by specific words, a certain turn of phrase, a certain
tone or inflection that put me subconsciously (I guess) in touch with a
moment in the past when I got hurt by malicious actions that were
accompanied by those very words, expressions or conveyed feelings. Memories
of some long forgotten or repressed traumas surfaced, the traumas that gave
me in fact the kind of physical reactions that you are mentioning. I also
found that I projected the original person who spoke those 'button pressing
words' onto the guiltless person who made me remember, who unbeknownst to
him or her 'keyed me in'. Eventually I could freely admit that my anger,
frustration or pain had nothing to do with the person who said those words
to me later. There was actually many an occasion of hilarious laughter after
such an incident of release.
So, what I wrote did not have the intention to get your heart pounding, I
was agreeing with what you wrote and then I started freewheeling a bit on
the bubble idea.
The only thing I can suggest is that what I wrote opened up an old can of
worms for you. Try to trace the origin of it... I am not the origin of your
upset, I cannot be because I did not hurt you, my words and tone may have
reminded you of some patronising attitude and I must have activated some
very old pain. Of course what I just said to you might even be painful
still. Also it is way too simplistic... it took me many years of intense
pain and suffering to see reality and start claiming some freedom.
> I found most of what you had to say insufferably patronising. I know this
> says far more about me than it says anything about you, and that the part
of
> myself I see 'reflected' in your words is what is making me feel nauseous.
Now do not blame yourself, someone else did hurt you in the PAST IN REALITY,
in what form I don't know and you may not know (yet). But the hurt was not
caused by me now, nor by yourself but by *someone* in the past whom my
words, suggestive inflections, intonations or something remind you of.
> I want to add that when my father died the process had a profound effect
on me
> and I am not ignoring that there are other things going on.
Well, check it out, often people from the past, whom we try to protect and
*have to love so dearly* turn out to be the culprits... Of course this is
too simplistic as well... but we have to start somewhere.
So start with the "dear ones", if they really loved us and were blameless,
they will not object but understand and help you further.
What to do with that discovery of a 'dear person who actually hurt us', how
to deal with such a person. It would take us to long to get into now... but
trust me, eventually insight, understanding, love and compassion will sort
it out... from all sides... I just came back from seeing my dying father in
Holland, him sorting it out. His 7 children and wife, sorting it out as
well... Yes love is.
But one has to be willing, and eventually one WILL be willing, to look under
the gloss of beauty, one has to scratch off the beautiful paint-over jobs
and retouches to find what is hidden behind them... the pain and
unfairnesses that were done to you when you could not defend yourself. And
for which you yourself were probably blamed... as punishment. That is what
perpetrators do, they blame their victim., My father actually said so, and
told us he could not help it as he had a history of pain and punishment as
well.
> The 'come on El -tell us all about it' bit gave me a sense of voyeurism.
(As El sees me as this bothersome and annoying brother who keeps popping up,
I may as well live up to that reputation. Sorry El, but I appreciated your
*every post as very important*, not to clobber it, but to..... well that is
what annoying brothers do I guess..., You leaving, for now I hope, will give
us some respite..., hope to see us back.)
> The 'come on El -tell us all about it' bit gave me a sense of voyeurism.
I don't care, I have seen plenty, and done plenty myself during my own
agonies when I consciously or unconsciously hurt ppl with malicious intent.
Voyeurism? I do not need it, clients tell me all the time..., there are no
surprises... the stuff is all too much the same or a variation of the
same... The pain however is individual, acute and real... That pain needs to
be relived to discover the real source of it, to uncover the original
perpetrator... That can most of the time only be done by talking and
eventually by crying out about it, like crying one's heart out... Before
that kind of crying... the heart invariably pounds... as you know...
> The 'come on El -tell us all about it' bit gave me a sense of voyeurism.
El hardly ever told us anything specific about herself, she was lately
pretty well always talking about whom she felt sympathy for, and she was
actually not very specific on the real contents of their pain except that
they were all 'kind of hunted' She tried to protect... not to free them per
se, she tried to group them together... There are some very valid reasons
for that and initially there is great merit in that type of protection but
eventually one has to face the original incident from the past through a
recursive process of going backwards through intermediate incidents, like
digging through the layers of built up waste. Each person will dig for it
personally, individually... each person will come clear with one's own
personal pain... Group dynamics on the other hand, and that is where they
bog down so often, turn into the continuation of suffering, not the
clarification of the dynamics of pain and understanding and disarmament of
the perpetrators of pain. The group dynamics (peers) creates group weakness
and invites the gang attack behaviour as you could witness El slowly
building up to. That kind of thing is the dynamics of the Balkan Wars
syndrome. The perpetuation of tribal, racial, religious, class wars, etc.
And almost always, and that scares the hell out of most ppl. who want to
free themselves, the perpetrators of malicious act(s) instil fear as they
install also an almost inescapable curse or spell, forever hanging over the
head of his or her victims.
I said in my previous post:
> their balloon, their bubble...
There is one of the words that keyed you in.
> Does this mean that the supposed victim's perspective that some one wishes
> to burst their bubble is indeed correct?
What do YOU think... This is the kind of moment where El would come up with
the most outrageous and hypothetical examples to draw and steer away from
her own pain...(clothed in humour, sarcasm, wit and often self
depreciation.)
> The whole bubble thing conjures up soap advert images in my mind
Your 'key-ins'. It does not do that to me... I am not an avid advert
reader.
> and I have great difficulty seeing myself in any thing so 'clean',
> I feel far too 'grubby'.
You must have been made to feel grubby then, that must have been an
evaluation by someone who judged your condition as unclean... Anyway you see
it is complex... more complex than to deal with it here so offhandedly...
> and I have great difficulty seeing myself in any thing so 'clean',
> I feel far too 'grubby'. If I do really stretch my imagination and try to
see myself as a
> sad eyed fairy in a bubble of unreality, I think I'd be really upset if
> someone took it upon themselves to burst it, even if they did have 'good
> intentions'.
Upset? That's my point, why would you be? Where does this *upset* come from?
The bubble itself seems free and floating, ah what fairy tale... floating...
but so fleetingly. Bubbles WILL burst if not by poking then still by some
other means... To prevent that and as a stalling tactic we reinforce those
inside walls with those beautiful sayings, posters, mirages and fridge
magnet messages... There are even ways to have our bubbles gently touch each
other and form clusters of tenuous protection, remember that was what El was
doing...
Are we to be in a bubble? And if the bubble bursts for whatever reason, who
put this fear into us and why would we be so upset about this hypothetical
and not even very elegant metaphor.
> To use a phrase of Susan's, another woman on this list that I have come to
> admire respect and feel gratitude and love for, this whole thing 'smacks'
of
> 'the grow god dammit' school of thought, however much it is couched in
pure
> and cleansing lather.
Again that 'smacking' as you call it, is a keying in of one of the adages of
old and outdated ways of education. I'm not saying it, never said it, cannot
even say it. We only need to try to understand, try to discover the dynamics
of pain and suffering, so that we may understand and find our own way of
liberation. So that we may pop our own bubble hopefully and with childlike
laughter.
We also know that those ppl. from the "grow godammit" school, did not really
want us to do that... "grow" They wanted us to grow THEIR flowers, grow into
what they could not accomplish.
> Do I say with love?
I did not detect the lack of love!!!
> I suspect I have made contact with ire,
Good for you, love allows that...
> but love can encompass ire - can it not?
Love is not afraid of anything,
Wim
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