To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/07/05 08:02
Subject: Re: [K-list] Re: Love the Enemy
From: Gcwein1111
On 2000/07/05 08:02, Gcwein1111 posted thus to the K-list:
In a message dated 7/4/00 12:11:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
david.bozziATnospamnetzero.net writes:
<<
GCWein1111ATnospamaol.com wrote:
> Okay ..... l've decided you are 4 feet tall, weigh 400 pounds, were
> born in East Kyakuk on Jan 3, 1995, have 8 pimples on your nose and have
been
> certified as insane. Do you disagree? Well, too bad, because that's what
> l've decided. Since all distinctions are subjective, my opinion is as valid
> as yours.
If you truly believe what you claim to believe then it is real for you.
Hello David,
Well, this is the problem, isn't it, with claiming that
all distinctions are subjective? My claiming you are 4 ft tall and weigh 400
lbs may make it "real" for me, but it's not really a subjective distinction
when these are not in fact your dimensions. And it's not a very workable
approach: any action can be justified by someone on the basis that the
grounds for it are "real" for them.
> Once there was a man who believed he held the power over life and
death. He believed
he was a type of king and possessed the right to take another life as he saw
fit and so he
killed
many people in accordance to his beliefs. He believed his beliefs were well
thought out and
righteous.
Do his beliefs matter with regard to his murdering?
If so, what beliefs could he believe that would not make him a murderer?
Not make killing violent?
Nothing you have said is proof that this mythical king was necessarily a bad
one for his time. lf he lived (many centuries ago) when violence ruled the
land, when his people were constantly victimized and terrorized by thieving
and murdering scoundrels, and if he did his best to find out who the guilty
ones were and to render justice and punishment (including capital punishment)
according to the prevailing customs of his time, then he may have been a good
king who insured the safety of peaceful, law abiding subjects. On the other
hand, if he punished (and put to death) people in a capricious, self serving
way that had little or nothing to do with true justice, then he was a bad
and evil king.
For the purpose
of our discussion, the former instance is the only one which is at all
relevant. We have a great justice system -- not a perfect one, for sure, but
an excellent one. The US Constitution is probably the greatest legal document
the world has ever known -- the only constitiution to have lasted and served
as the foundation for a great democracy for centuries. With the Bill of
Rights, it contains guarantees of rights to criminal defendants that at least
in theory (altho, of course, not always in practice) assure that a defendant
will be justly tried and sentenced.
Hitler, governments, victims' relatives and loved ones all have beliefs
that tell them they are right.
Beliefs can be dangerous.
Armed with our beliefs we might be able to execute and justify any action at
all.
Even murder.
Our justice system doesn't function on the basis of our beliefs, as l've
just explained. lt functions on the basis of evidence and procedures for
reviewing and testing evidence that have as their objective the overcoming
and setting aside of personal prejudices and belief systems. The death
penalty has been reinstuted in most states pursuant to popular demand of the
citizenry, 70% of whom approve of the death penalty. l think this is wrong
and that the system would be better without the death penalty, but it's there
because the people have wished it to be, not because of the whim of a
capricious despot.
Perhaps our beliefs need to be carefully inspected.
But it is frightening to think we might not be so different from a murderer.
So we never look within and see.
What are we missing?
What do we deny ourself by looking away?
Can we and the world be transformed if we aren't honest about our beliefs?
Harmful beliefs do their bidding by avoiding the light of awareness.
Come look with me into this clearest lake
and you will see that we each have a vested interest in illusion.
I have nothing to hide.
May There Be Peace In Your Heart
David, l'll put it this way. Of course, we all need to look within and
honestly inspect our beliefs. Of course, we all have murderous impulses. So
what? l don't know you, so don't take this personally. lt's just my
experience that people who take refuge behind high sounding spiritual phrases
and jargon rather than looking at issues realistically (such as equating real
murderers to the prosecutors, judges and juries that deal with them and
professing to love murderers, as love knows no difference) are indeed likely
to be deluding themselves and hiding something from themselves, altho l
recognize that they may not be aware of it. This may or may not be true for
you -- if it is, l certainly don't think a discussion between us on the list
is likely to reveal anything.
l happen to be a severe critic of our justice system, because in
spite of its greatness there are things going on now that l really find
abhorrent. But the simplistic application of spiritual principles in a way
that distorts reality is not the answer.
jerry
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