To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/06/24 01:16
Subject: Re: [K-list] critters, hounds, pigs, asses.
From: Wim Borsboom
On 2000/06/24 01:16, Wim Borsboom posted thus to the K-list:
Dear El
I quoted the following lines from some of your previous posts:
> And hungry critters tend to get snappy and bite.
> seems completely obtuse and pig-headed wrong too,
> But the hounds still want her blood.
> Yep, now the hounds are hot on my trail!
> both pompous asses
I wrote:
>Is there something wrong with animals too here?
You wrote:
> From a shamanic standpoint, most animals are of a higher order than the
> average homo sapien, therefore, comparing us to "asses" was a compliment
> to us. Wim, consider my words and try to be more loving toward the
animals.
What made you think I was not loving enough (?) towards animals? It was
exactly my point...
You used animal symbolism (hounds, pig-headedness, critters, asses etc.) in
a
somewhat pejorative manner. I found that interesting so I commented on
that...
I love animals... has never even been a question... I do not even have a
choice...
I may not agree with the "shamanic standpoint". I think it would be a good
thing to veer away from the concept of distinctions of higher or lower
orders.... It did and does get humans into trouble. To keep thinking that
way
is not at all beneficial to the order (different meaning of the
word 'order' than your are using) of the universe in all its manifestations.
For me this "shamanic standpoint" (if it is shamanic at all) about 'higher
or lower orders' is based on attaching culture based values to invaluable
earthly and universal manifestations.
I think it could easily lead to humanity bashing. Now, I agree that humanity
did not all the time live up to other meaning of the word humanity. But
blaming humanity (BTW, I'm not saying that you do this, I'm just bringing
this up) so blaming humanity for all the ails on earth (and the moon and
soon to come mars) is as bad as depressed people blaming themselves for all
the ails that befall them, which is just as bad as blaming everybody else
but oneself for all the ails that one experiences.
Obviously, blaming is not the way to go at all... therefore judgement has to
not only to be suspended but gotten rid of altogether, and like you said a
few postings back:
> when love truly speaks, it not only "protects"
> us; it disarms everyone in its path.
> Genuine love isn't divisive and it
> doesn't pit us against each other.
> Instead, it unites us in our awe of
> its miraculous beauty.
> ... You're right, Wim. Since you are the most powerful person on the
list, ....
The fact that I write a lot of "this or that kind of drivel" and whether it
is close or far from truth does not matter, that does not make me "the most
important on the list." (In whose eyes is this anyway?) You are just as
powerful. Every single list member is the most powerful... we are all free
on this list, we do not have to belong to the list, we do not have to write,
we do not have to read, we do not even have to agree, we are all free to
accept or not accept whatever the other says... such is the prerogative of
every
member (and human being): the power to be oneself.
You can ask me to stop writing to you, that is totally acceptable. Someone
asked me that as well about a year ago or so, you may remember that and I
honour that with the least amount of judgement (as far as I know that
anyway.) In addition we have the 'insurance' of the list guidelines and
Angelique who can shut us up... which she hardly ever does.
The power to stand up for ONESELF makes one *the most powerful*, but that is
power from one's Source, that power does not make one person more powerful
than another person as the concern of comparing ourselves to one another
disappears. Also concerns about distribution and division of power fall away
after one has learned or learned again to stand on one's own.
If anything (but I may not be good at that in your view, and you may want to
attest to that), I help clients, who in freedom come to me, who freely ask
for that help and who freely pay for that help, to stand up for themselves.
That is what I do in my practice and do well they say.
What I learn from them, the most powerful statements and insights that those
clients discover and recount to me are part of what I write about. That is
what I try to say, is it not? "Stand up for yourself, diminish and annul the
fear instilling tactics of power mongers and abusers."
Let me mention what you write about how your mother was with you:
>My mother was physically abusive to me too, while I
>never saw my father raise a hand to hurt anyone. He was a very ethical
>person, capable of tender displays of compassion. My mother lacked
>empathy, tenderness and was a bit short on ethics.
>To everyone outside the family, she appeared to be a pleasant,
>happy person. I spent my childhood watching
>her justify everything she did with her unflagging optimism. It was OK to
>beat your kid because kids won't remember it anyway and everything will
>turnout merry and bright in the end.
I'm not saying that it validates to me to some extent that what I have been
writing to you was not too far off the mark, but I'm saying that what you
write contains enough of an illustration for the points that I try to make
to you. You may not see that, you may be too much in the middle of it,
but.... could it not be that others who have more genuine (not weird) love
for you than you can imagine may be on the right track. Of course, as
Percyval wrote, you are not asking for help. True enough, that is why it is
free. And... if you don't want it, because it might be damaging to you, tell
me not to write to you again.
Back to 'standing up for yourself or for others':
The need to stand up for yourself is not the same as the need to stand
up *for others*. Championing for the under-dog (oops
an animal symbol), is quite often based on surrogate or manipulative
power, the control of a group (typically peers) of fearful ppl. Ppl. made
fearful
by outside forces under duress (you understand that by now from me).
As I keep saying, fear is not a characteristic of a person but a
conditioned, acquired attitude that the fearful person is not to blame for.
> trouble that comes up is basically your fault. Please get your act
> together so the rest of us can exist in peace and harmony here.
There would not be a kundalini list then...
I wrote:
> <<And also seriously, you really need to do some loving you know...
>
> Loving it Out Loud
>
> Love,
> Wim>>
You replied:
> Are you coming on to me? What is this obsession you have with my love
> life?
I thought you had no trouble with love, giving or receiving it...?
That is the whole idea of life is it not?
Now, that may sound like a sarcastic remark but look at what you wrote me:
>Are things not going well with the women you added to your harem?
That is not nice..., not that I deserve niceness from you... but do you have
to be sarcastic?
Do you mean what you implicated...
> How's your wife, by the way?
Do you really want to know, would you believe the answer?
> Please give her my regards...
I did
> and sympathy.
She smiled: "Sympathy, what for?"
Love,
Wim
(You know by now that I sign every post to everyone that way...)
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