To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/04/22 13:35
Subject: Re: [K-list] Objectivity as illusion?
From: Gcwein1111
On 2000/04/22 13:35, Gcwein1111 posted thus to the K-list:
In a message dated 4/21/00 11:04:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
serpentATnospamdomin8rex.com writes:
<<
OK, I'll tackle it. Premise: objectivity is illusion-all perceptions
are subjective.
Truth, our senses pick up raw data, light and sound vibrations, etc,
and this raw data is filtered thru our unconscious which identifies what is
percieved, and sends output to our consciousness based on our previous
experiences. This is true of all perception, no matter who is percieving,
even with a scientist or reporter, input is filtered thru the unconscious.
There is only subjectivity, objectivity does not exist, because of the
nature of perception. All perceptions are filtered thru the lens of
perception, so everyone sees something slightly different.
Sample: is the glass half full or half empty? Depends on who is
percieving. Ever see "The Gods must be crazy"? The bushmen had never seen
glass before, they thought the Coke bottle was made of some kind of hard
water.
The statement does not mean that Hitler didn't happen, but rather that
every person who percieved Hitler, saw him thru their own subjective
filters of opinions, judgments and beliefs. Everyone has a different
experience of Hitler. Everyone has different experiences of life, so no two
people see things in exactly the same way. Everybody lives in a different
reality.. their own universe.
Even this post: everyone is reading the same words, but everyone is
experiencing the information differently, and having different thoughts
about it... so the words take on a different meaning to different people.
Thus, the learning of Kundalini is experiential.. until you have had the
experiences, you cannot understand the spirtual writings.. and even people
who have had similar experiences interpret them differently.
Another example: there was a lesson given to a group of psychology or
criminology students.. someone ran into the classroom, mugged the
professor, and ran out again. The students were asked to describe what they
saw, for a police report... most saw a black man with a gun or a knife..
they could not agree on what color shirt he wore, etc.. it was actually a
white guy armed with a banana.. nobody in the room saw a banana.. because
the filters of perception altered their reality to fit in with their
beliefs.
We do not see "reality", we only see our opinions about it reflected
>>
Hello Angelique,
l've been too busy lately to keep up with the list, but l can
see that my off the cuff response to the quote on objectivity and
subjectivity has generated posts from dissenters -- all of which has reminded
me that this is a difficult and tricky area, and l'm not sure l want to work
this hard right now!
l find it hard to
disagree with most of what you've carefully spelled out here,and l didn't
intend in my remarks to minimize the pervasiveness of subjectivity. l need
only reflect back on my courtroom days to know the truth of the story you
recounted above in which the students all observed this act differently for
whatever reasons. Yet, we know that in this example there was an objective
truth also: that there was a white guy with a bandana. So there is both
subjective viewpoint and objective truth in the world. And there are people
who get it right -- there are people who accurately see the white guy with
the bandana. Now, l should stop right here, because your other examples
are more difficult. :)
With
Hitler, it's true that our individual views are subjective in that they're
all filtered, so to speak. But there are objective aspects involved here
also: the objective facts of what he said and did and the consequences of his
actions. We can say that all viewpoints of Hitler are subjective, but world
opinion of him has remained universally negative for over 50yrs. That's good,
because for the world to be a better place we need fewer Hitlers. lt seems to
me that the problem with overly empowering and glorifying subjectivity is
that it makes it easier to forget who Hitler was and what he did and
therefore makes it easier for future Hitlers. lt also makes it easier to
ignore and forget the harm that all of the fraudulent spiritual teachers have
done and makes it easier for the next one.
"The Gods Must Be Crazy" is an interesting example -- l loved
that film, altho l have to admit l had a crush on the school teacher, so l
was biased. You're right about this one illustrating how subjective our world
is. On what common ground can such diverse cultures meet when even a coke
bottle is perceived so differently? l'd only offer: on the basically
universal values of kindness, non-violence toward others, non-stealing from
others and compassion. Now, are these qualities subjective or objective? To
me .... neither, and both.
With
kundalini, l completely agree with you. l've said for years that the whole k
realm seems almost totally subjective. Maybe that's why it's driven me nuts.
:):):) jerry
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