To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/03/09 12:35
Subject: [K-list] More on Mania and Schizophrenia
From: mumble cat
On 2000/03/09 12:35, mumble cat posted thus to the K-list:
From: "mumble cat" <mumblecatATnospamangelfire.com>
>Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:04:41 +0200 (EET)
> From: Ville Vainio <vvainioATnospamtp.spt.fi>
>Subject: Mania and schizophrenia
Hi Ville et al.,
Some more views on the topic of mania and
schozophrenia.
Ville, I'm not trying to argue with you or
make you change your mind or anything.
I'm just want to
add some colors to the captivating palette of
thoughts you have here.
I had no idea you had a web page.
I'll go check it out later tonight or
tomorrow night (depending on time).
Will be interesting to see what you've got in there.
I've been thinking about setting up some pages
myself, but decided against it a while ago.
You said:
>I don't think there is logic involved at all. It's just a bunch of shrinks
>trying to make good guesses, usually failing miserably.
:) Most medicine is like that, trying to
make good guesses.
So is science, but scientist working directly
with experiments usually have a little bit more
control over their train of thoughts and
can construct tests and perform them.
It still remains only
models of reality though, as can only
give a simplified version of it.
As you probably know being in the natural
sciences. :)
With real life humans and psychiatry, the
questions become a bit different.
>Yours truly was once diagnosed to have schizoid
>personality disorder due to my philosophical/spiritual interests.
Yes, a rather poor platform on which to base
this diagnosis.
I can see this must have been one of those
stigmatizing labels Lisaveta mentioned in her
post to the list.
>I had had problems with k previously, mostly >anxiety,
That is a common enough problem with K or
pre K times. I see it as an excess of energy
in the emotional body as well as a balance
trying to be recaptured but somewhat failing.
>and diagnosed me as a schizoid personality. Despite the fact that I have
>always been deeply emotional, love my wife & family, and have friends.
>Servers to prove how far psychiatry is from actual science.
Most definitely. This to me is what makes
psychiatry so dangerous, it is always someone's
more or less well educated opinion, but
it is not the same as a blood test.
It is however different with mental illness
which also carries with it neurological change
and disease, which can be be easier tested for.
However, I would not have liked to have the
difficult profession of psychiatrist,
although at one point in my life I did consider it.
I can sense the pain this "diagnosis" must have
caused. Acquiring a "psychiatric" diagnosis
has in many ways the effects of other ppl
not wanting or not being able to take your
views and wishes seriously. It is a rather
depowering type of label.
It shows how much psychiatric illness is feared
even today.
One must wonder whether this is not a dark
Jungian shadow of the fear of not being able
to cope, of not being able to do what modern
society expects us to do, i.e. perform.
>some correlation to the possibility that something nasty will pop up
>behind an otherwise ignored, innocent looking neuron. Somebody that
>exclusively does the sleep-eat-work
>routine won't quite probably activate much of the hidden pathways, and
>will probably have a saner life.
:) Yes, until the ball drops, until you get
into hot waters, and as I see it, that happens
for everyone at least once in their life.
Apart from such a crisis being a great opportunity for spritual progress and even
enlightenment, situations like these are in
many ways the measure stick for how sane you really are, not on the surface when everything
is spick and clean, but
how well or not you can cope in a situation
that rips you out of your familiar old
places and sets you in unfamiliar terrain.
(We may be back to the old maxim of surrender
here. Only in situations of extreme emotional
/ physical pressure will the ego allow itself
to surrender, most likely as a result of
simply not being able to go on any more.)
In addition, as I see it,
one does well in exploring those harmless
looking neurons before they are being
ground in your face.
However,
prior to my K awakening, I used to read reports
of doctors warning against TM and other types
of meditation with great horror and woved
never to be involved in anything so dangerous.
Now I can only say... some things have to be
faced sooner or later. :)
>Me too. One of them is that spiritual person can quite easily fake the
>behaviour of a normal person, and go along the same thought routes as the
>normals do.
Heh heh heh, exactly. LOL !
That's about the only differentiation I too can
make b/n someone successful on the spiritual
path and the person diagnosed with ps. disease.
LOL !
The spiritual person can hide away the mystical
views and pretend to be an everyday person,
s/he does not have to shout that s/he has seen
god that morning and can go to work like
nothing happened. The insane person is not
able to stay silent about his experiences.
Well, that is very simple, as all instances of
imbalances are mystical experiences.
However, I do think there is a question about
balance here.
As you say, the spiritual person swims, the
one labeled insane sinks.
The spiritual person receives the mystical
states while in balance, being able to cope
with the upsetting or shocking experiences
without being overwhelmed by them,
the person being labeled insane does not,
maybe because there is a general imbalance
in the mind body.
>showed increased density of dopanergic synapses , but this could
>have as well been the result of dopaminergic up-regulation by the neuroleptic drugs.
You're absolutely right about that.
However, I do remember having seen extensive
reports on genetic differences in schizo-
phrenic patients compared to unaffected
control group, and this would support
the theory that serious mental disease such
as schizophrenia has inheritable as well
as environmental factors.
>I sincerely hope so :-).
:) Well, maybe the spiritual process will
leave you with no desire to communicate with
the surrounding world, but I do believe the
choice will still be there. Or that it is need
based. As long as the desire to speak is there,
the ability will stay. Or something like that.
;)
>We'll see if that will happen... it would be kinda cool if such things
>indeed happened, professionally thinking.
It doesn't for everybody and this list is full
of examples where the process hasn't led to
the ability to take more strain or decreased
depression and anxiety, but on the other hand
seemingly added to the burden.
However, if the process is a balanced one,
I do strongly believe the ability to take
strain is increased with time.
Some sources on the net claim that Kundalini
can be turned outwards into external activities
and used to enhance success in professional
life. Personally I can't exactly see how this
can come about, partly because K can make
it difficult to read / study
at times, and is prone to
make one more easily tired, physically, as well
as mucks up the short term memory, but yes,
my personal experience is that K can reduce
stress in general and at work.
Things are more easily done, there is less
resistance to tasks previously disliked,
the boss' temper tantrums are more easily handled and forgotten,
some things are done without conscious volition
sometimes.
>I'm in the age (23) when I'm
>supposed to start developing a career of some sort, and I know my family
>won't rest until I'm a stinking rich Ph.D. Up to know, k has given only spiritual benefits.
Well, if to become a stinking rich PhD is what
you most deeply want, if you are in the place
you should be, not according to your family but
according to your soul,
chances are great that you will become a
stinking rich PhD (apart from you being able to
actually
become rich through the study you have chosen
as opposed to many other academic professions).
However, if this is not the place you most
deeply want to be, a better and more
appropriately feeling alternative may well
present itself. :)
When I first joined the list one year ago,
I read these stories about how K had caused
many ppl to lose their jobs.
I thought I was in for the same, but so far,
I have only become more deeply involved.
I would like a different career, but for the
moment, I seem to be rather stuck.
Too bad that entails 10 hour long work days. :((
We all have our own dharma to uphold. :)
>"Balance"... hmm.. I think I had that feeling around the early 1997 ;-).
LOL !
More like a thermostat then, up then down,
up then down, somewhere in this balancing act
the perfect balance will be struck and then
balance will never again be a problem. ;)
>though I assume that a good therapist
>can turn a schizoid into schizophrenic in a few well-planned sessions.
LOL ! I am pretty sure about that to.
In order to undergo psychiatric care, one should be extremely sane.
>Yep, and the psychiatry forgets that it is also a religion (or at least as
>absurd as many religions).
Yes, it casts itself as the mold for the
true explanation for the human condition.
I do have respect for psychiatry and psychology,
but I no longer believe it holds the true
explanations.
>Me, personally, even consider caffeine a drug and avoid it as much as
>possible, and don't even recommend drinking tea to anyone.
:) Yep I find all of the above
rather incompatible with K.
Tea or coffee, in combination with K it is like pouring gasoline on fire. Even the small amount of
coffeine which there is in tea is enough
to remove seemingly all free glucose from my blood stream within 15 mins.
It causes cold sweats and the tonsils swell.
Alcohol has an even more pronounced effect.
It causes pain in the neck and head and a
general feel of being wrongly loaded with
energy.
>As a final note, I must say that I was extremely shocked and upset when I
>first read about the mental hobbies/schizophrenia connection. I sincerely
>hope that the alleged connection is false,
Well, you do have the weird strange unfeeling
distant and strange ( did I already mention that ?) Japanese
otaku, ppl that spend most of their times
in a mental world inspired by comic books,
films, computer games, tropical fish, etc etc,
absolutely obsessed with their hobbies which
are invariably of the mental type
and never do much physical exercise
Think Star Trekkers on speed.
They would fit the bill of schizoid personality.
I don't know what the incidence of schizo-
phrenia among them is, though.
I only think that in today's world, mental
activities are becoming more and more common
because of the way we structure our societies.
Nevertheless, I think the connection you
mention can be true for some but definitely
not for all.
>And ultimately, we'll all end up dead anyway, and see the same, smiling
>absence of darkness.
LOL ! Yes, thank you.
I did ask my sister, who has been under education to work in the health sector
about what would happen if mental disease would
just be left untreated (I was curious to see
whether the patient would end up in a vegetative state) sort of run itself out.
This was an alternative taht had obviosuly
never struck my sister's or her teachers'
minds. It was an unthinkable option.
Every patient had to at least be tried to
get back into normal functioning.
This is understandable seing that the medical
profession has a mission to secure the health
of ppl, but it is also a political issue.
Should society pay for care for psychiatric
patients that
are unable to function by themselves
without first at least trying to treat them
and bring them back to normal functioning ?
Prior to the chemical revolution of psychiatry,
I do believe a lot of patients were cared this
way, by kind co-villagers or family members,
there was simply nothing more to do for them
than give them the basic care and see to it
that they did not harm themselves or others in
their illness.
However,
I am not sure this is the right solution.
Thank you again for the discussion.
Best regards,
Amanda.
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