To: K-list
Recieved: 2000/03/08 08:04
Subject: Re: [K-list] Mania and schizophrenia
From: Ville Vainio
On 2000/03/08 08:04, Ville Vainio posted thus to the K-list:
From: Ville Vainio <vvainioATnospamtp.spt.fi>
BTW, in case someone didn't know, there is some related stuff in my
unupdated K web page, which I moved to
http://window.to/kundalini
On Tue, 7 Mar 2000, mumble cat wrote:
> >that the people who most probably become schizophrenic are drawn towards
> >yoga, because yoga brings pleasure through the person himself, instead of
> >relying on the external pleasures (ie. other people).
> Well, so does masturbation and eating, LOL !
Yes, but I believe the point was that the pleasures in quirstion were the
pleasures that become essential in one's personal life/"being".
> It's really difficult to tell what is
> a symptom and what is a cause.
> The logic does tend to get pretty circular
> in these matters.
I don't think there is logic involved at all. It's just a bunch of shrinks
trying to make good guesses, usually failing miserably.
> I have read that what psychiatry calls the schizoid personality is one
> withdrawn from other ppl, though, but where to put the line b/n
> "normal" and "withdrawn" anyway ? By the number of close friends a
> person has, or the number of times the person goes out each week, or
> by a personality test to judge whether the person is "outgoing" or
> "shy" ?
I believe the actual schizoid personality diagnosis requires that the
person in question is quite unemotional, "rational", and doesn't care much
about anything. Yours truly was once diagnosed to have schizoid
personality disorder due to my philosophical/spiritual interests. I had
had problems with k previously, mostly anxiety, and there was no suitable
diagnosis for the paperwork, so the shrink picked up the lowest common
denominator, the fact that I'm interested in spirituality and rather shy,
and diagnosed me as a schizoid personality. Despite the fact that I have
always been deeply emotional, love my wife & family, and have friends.
Servers to prove how far psychiatry is from actual science.
> I do see your point, that ppl with a schizoid personality disorder
> often have an above average interest in turning into himself,
> philosophy, yoga, etc as you say, mental activities in general, but to
> say that these activities may lead to schizophrenia in and of
> themselves is a bit too simple.
Maybe, it was not my view, but rather something I read. However, the
frequency of "exploring" the mind, activating hidden regions must have
some correlation to the possibility that something nasty will pop up
behind an otherwise ignored, innocent looking neuron. Somebody that
exclusively does the sleep-eat-work(physical) - watch tv - have sex
routine won't quite probably activate much of the hidden pathways, and
will probably have a saner life.
> Yes, whereas psychiatrists may label a yogi in closed eyes samadhi as
> irrevocably mentally ill, withdrawn schizoid etc, I personally hold
> that there is marked difference between spiritual characteristics and
> mental disorder.
Me too. One of them is that spiritual person can quite easily fake the
behaviour of a normal person, and go along the same thought routes as the
normals do. But the belief that being awakened is normal++, while insane
(I'm using the word in the broad sense, also including neurotics and panic
disordered ones) is being normal--, is false. We're all children of the
cosmos, or whatever.
> such as schiziophrenia to cause physical damage of the brain, leading
> to an irrevocable change, which can be demonstrated anatomically and
> physiologically.
This, I didn't know. I had read that schizos, when operated after their
death, showed increased density of dopanergic synapses , but this could
have as well been the result of dopaminergic up-regulation by the
neuroleptic drugs.
> Same with epilepsy. Untreated, it may fry
> off so many neurons so that it shows up on CT scans.
Yes, epileptic shocks always do damage to the brain, but epilepsy as a
disease is much better known that eg. schizophrenia or neurosis.
> A spiritual process, on the other hand, when left alone, will not lead
> to a permanent and increasing loss of neurons, vacuolizations of the
> brain tissue, brain edema etc and it does not leave the individual
> completely unable to communicate with the surrounding world.
I sincerely hope so :-).
> It will on the other hand, often lead to an individual able to take
> more mental and physical strain, the mind and body having become more
> flexible, less plagued with anxiety and depression etc.
We'll see if that will happen... it would be kinda cool if such things
indeed happened, professionally thinking. I'm in the age (23) when I'm
supposed to start developing a career of some sort, and I know my family
won't rest until I'm a stinking rich Ph.D. Up to know, k has given only
spiritual benefits.
> recapturing the balance of the transmitters in the brain etc without
> the need for medication, without the need for external stimulation.
"Balance"... hmm.. I think I had that feeling around the early 1997 ;-).
> So in my view, Kundalini and the spiritual process is /not/ without
> reservations the same as psychiatric disease.
I agree wholeheartedly, but they belong to the same family of phenomena,
the alteration of the normal human baseline.
> The idea of giving up one's mental traits of personality does not go
> under the label of "normal" in psychiatric terms.
It is controversial in psychiatry whether personality disorders even
should be treated, as they are not a problem for the "patient" and it's
almost impossible to change them - though I assume that a good therapist
can turn a schizoid into schizophrenic in a few well-planned sessions.
> In many ways, psychiatry views spirituality and religious emotions as
> delusion and illness. There are many books devoted to this view.
Yep, and the psychiatry forgets that it is also a religion (or at least as
absurd as many religions).
> As one last comment, I'd say that if you are overly interested in
> psychedelic drugs and using it, yes, the chances that you may develop
> some kind of disorder is large indeed.
We must remember that psychedelics are the only efficient way for
rational, normal people to access the Reality beyond all the materialistic
crap. And the disorders caused by psychedelics are usually of short
duration, few months at maximum.
Me, personally, even consider caffeine a drug and avoid it as much as
possible, and don't even recommend drinking tea to anyone.
> However, if you are interested in philosophy that does not
> automatically mean you're prone to schizophrenia or schizoid
> personality disorder (as I understand it, the two things are not
> exactly the same).
No, they are a completely seperate thing. Psyciatrists used to think that
schizoid personality makes one more vulnerable to shizophrenia.
> That an interest in philosophy and "mental hobbies" may lead to
> schizophrenia and / or schizoid personality disorder has not exactly
> been demonstrated, has it ?
No idea.
As a final note, I must say that I was extremely shocked and upset when I
first read about the mental hobbies/schizophrenia connection. I sincerely
hope that the alleged connection is false, just as much as everyone else
here. After all, the source wasn't too authoritary. I know that this is a
bleak subject, but might be of scientific interest to some people.
And ultimately, we'll all end up dead anyway, and see the same, smiling
absence of darkness.
(chant 'Om Namah Shivaya' thrice to dispell all the negative energy you
might have received from this post. It worked for me.)
Ville Vainio - vvainioATnospamtp.spt.fi http://www.tp.spt.fi/~vvainio
Wild geese have no intention to cast a reflection
Water has no mind to assume their form
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