To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/10/22 09:24
Subject: Meditative trance (was Re: Re: [K-list] Lost mantras due to
From: Ville Vainio
On 1999/10/22 09:24, Ville Vainio posted thus to the K-list:
On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, alingimp wrote:
> Ville wrote:
> >Yes, they are not the same thing. Meditation is a *technique* which
> >creates a state called trance.
>
> Sorry to disagree, but proper meditation doesn't create a state of trance.
> It does create a meditative state, hence the whole process is called, well,
> meditation. Meditation is not just a technique, it is a state of mind, like
> trance is a state of mind.
This is a matter of semantics. For me, meditation is simply a technique,
which I use to boost my k. There is nothing sacred or special about
meditation (this is also why I don't believe there is any form of "proper"
meditation). Therefore I find the ideas how this or that is not meditation
quite alien. Everybody can meditate, but not everyone "succeeds" in it. I
use the word "trance", since for me it doesn't imply a sleepy state. When
I fall in trance, I start to feel all kinds of stuff like lost perception
of proportions (my body might feel huge etc.), somatic hallucinations and
curling energy movements. I could call it badadum or zgrah, but I have
chosen to call it meditative trance.
When people give meditation some special meaning, they will interpret
various trivial hallucinations spiritually, which could lead them astray.
> >Meditation (focusing) allows the trance to deepen. If one lets the trance
> >take control and "relaxes", enjoying the trance state, you can't go too
> >deep but when you go on concentrating (meditating) you go deeper into
> >trance.
> That's the whole point of meditating: To get deeper and deeper into this
> meditative state while keeping your mind focused.
It used to be the point for me also (actually that's how I got my k
awakened). Nowadays I choose to not go deeper, and settle on a lesser
level of trance instead. I meditate just to boost my k, I have already
experienced Samadhi so I don't have desire to go deeper. Though I would
not complain if I experienced it again.
Well, I have a week-long autumn vacation before me, perhaps I will try
going a little bit deeper this time. If you don't hear anything from me in
two weeks, it's probably because it's hard to type with a stray-jacket on
(joke).
> >Intuition, plus something I have read. I read that mantras that have not
> >been hand-picked by a "guru" of some sort can be dangerous, so it's easy
> >to draw the conclusion.
> You see, my intuition in the other hand tells me to keep on meditating, even
Mine also, my intuition was againt mantras, not meditation.
> to go deeper and deeper into this state while using a mantra to keep my mind
> from 'drifting off'. I don't believe that a mantra has to be hand picked by
I haven't even tried any forceful methods of keeping my mind drifting off
during k. I can meditate even with my mind drifitng off. Usually just
keeping the back straight and eyelids half closed does the trick.
> a guru to be effective or that it would be dangerous otherwise, although I
The argument about the importance of hand-picked mantras sounds suspicious
anyway. Still, even the thought of saying "krrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" for
extended periods of time makes me feel uncomfortable.
> at some point. So far, I've had only benefits from using a mantra during
> meditation and did not encounter any negative effects, maybe because I know
> that all I am experiencing during meditation, all the states of bliss or
> fear, all the pictures I see in front of my closed eyes are only a
> fabrication of my own mind and that the mantra I am reciting is protecting
> me. Should I be afraid of myself or what my own mind creates? Well, I don't
I have seen that the problems during meditation are really no problems at
all (stopping the meditation is rather easy). Still, however enjoyable the
meditation, one might start to feel intense fear and discomfort after the
meditation (the "point" of k was altering the non-meditative states of
mind, after all). What happens during meditation is really not that
important.
Additionally, fear is a reaction of nervous system just as much as
meditative experiences, so you can't easily predict when it will occur.
Sometimes anxiety is not accompanied by anything else, nothing specific to
be afraid about ("neurotic anxiety").
Ville Vainio - vvainioATnospamtp.spt.fi http://www.tp.spt.fi/~vvainio
We're all puppets
The first step on the path to understanding is seeing the strings
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