To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/10/02 15:05
Subject: Re: [K-list] Nature, Lucifer, and hell
From: Martin Thompson
On 1999/10/02 15:05, Martin Thompson posted thus to the K-list:
11:23:18 Sat, 2 Oct 1999
Jon-Carl Lewis at Jon-Carl Lewis <jclATnospamswcp.com> writes:
>>The interesting question, to my mind, is: if Lucifer is a "Christian god"
>>then what of Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, and the rest of the angelic host?
>>Would they not then also be gods?
Probably. Certainly, sometimes "God" has appeared, or angels have
appeared (in the Bible) and it has been unclear from the description
just who or what is speaking:
In Genesis 16 and angel appears to Hagar. "And the angel of Yahweh found
her at the water well in the wilderness." Then it goes on to say, "I
shall multiply your seed, that it will not be counted because of its
multitude."
Funny talk for an angel if it is not a God. The angel goes on to say,
"for Yahweh has listened to your affliction." Third person? Or talking
about itself? Next Hagar: "...called the name of Yahweh who was speaking
to her..."
Consider also Genesis 18, the story of the three visitors to Abraham:
"And Yahweh appeared to him by the trees of Mamre." The Bible goes on to
say of Abraham, "And he lifted his eyes and saw, and here were three
people standing over him. And he saw and ran toward them from the tent
entrance and prostrated himself on the ground and said, "My Lord, if I
have found favour in thine [singular] eyes do not pass thy [singular]
servant by."
Perhaps the three people are God and two angels? In 18:9 all three
speak. In 18:10, only one. In 18:14 Yahweh speaks. In 18:22, "the people
turned from there and went to Sodom, and Abraham was still standing
before Yahweh." The next story, of Sodom and Gomorrah, says, "And the
two angels came to Sodom."
Also, the story of Jacob, Genesis 32. "And a man struggled with him
until the breaking of the day." Later, though, "Your name will not be
called "Jacob" any more but rather "Israel" [fight with God] for you
have fought with God and with people and you have prevailed. And Jacob
asked and said, "Tell me your name." And he said, "Why is this that you
ask my name?" And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the
place "Peniel" [face of God] because I have seen God face to face and my
life is preserved." However, in Hosea 12, it refers to the story of
Jacob and says, "And with his strength he fought with God And he fought
with an angel and prevailed."
In Exodus 33:20 God says, "A human will not see me and live." (Although
they seem to in Exodus 24:9-11.)
So, the biblical word for angel (anasim in Hebrew, I think, though I
don't know the literal meaning) seems to mean some sort of manifestation
of God itself that can be viewed by a human.
In Exodus 3:2, "And an angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of
fire from inside a bush, and... the bush was burning with fire, and the
bush was not consumed."
So make of that what you will! Pretty strange, if you ask me.
--
Martin Thompson martinATnospamtucana.demon.co.uk
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.tucana.demon.co.uk
Free Regular Income: http://www.virtualis.com/vr/mthomps4/vrp.html
"Everything I do and say with anyone makes a difference." Gita Bellin
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