To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/09/30 07:42
Subject: Re: [K-list] K: Agony and Ecstasy
From: Ville Vainio
On 1999/09/30 07:42, Ville Vainio posted thus to the K-list:
On Wed, 29 Sep 1999 GCWein1111ATnospamaol.com wrote:
> My own feeling is that given that we know that many great
> saints and mystics of the past had to suffer through hellish k
> experiences, how can one assume that a blissful k experience (so far)
> confirms that the experiencer has done more work or is in any other
> way superior to someone who is going thru a hellish k experience?
> From all of the
Wild guess: having exclusively pleasant experiences suggests that there is
less of the energy to cope with, so it's easier to integrate. Having
hellish experiences suggests that there is much more energy to cope with,
and as such there is bigger "reward" later on, when the brain is "moulded"
to let the current run freely. So the difference, to make an analog to
electricity, is not in the resistance side, but in the current side.
To put it in (slightly) more scientific terms: intense awakening means
wider channel from subconscious to the ego-consciousness, while "pleasant"
awakening lets the subconscious surface smoothly and nicely, possibly
resulting in less permanent changes in the function of brain, and because
of that, a "milder" form of "enlightenment". (Yes, I admit this is
pseudo-science).
> they appear to be and often precede falls from grace. The surest
> indicator that such a fall is likely to occur is an inflated spiritual
> ego, which to me echos in the words " l for one had done my
> work...therefore bliss and joy are mine always..." There was a good
> show
I like to think that I have done my K - suffering already and bliss and
joy is mine now. I know that's selfish and stupid, but I think looking
forward to next relapse into suffering would not be too productive either.
> the way we learn compassion, and it makes sense to me that suffering
> is a valuable component of the k experience. Tremendous suffering
> permeates the lives of great spiritual figures of the past.
I wouldn't say valuable, but rather I see it as *necessary* component in k
experience. I have no idea about physical suffering and k (never had any
myself), but psychological suffering results because the ego is weakened
steadily and surely, and it likes to resist (and yes, it's not as easy to
just "let go" as one would think).
BTW, when we get over the suffering and to the blisshouse, we tend to
forget the suffering we had and ignore the suffering of those who are
still on that stage. We are overwhelmed by our own bliss and well-being,
and assume the sufferers should feel the same thing if they just adjusted
their viewpoint just a bit. That's just BS. Those who suffer, suffer, and
there is no easy way to reverse it (except Valium, LOL). Time does the
trick.
Ville Vainio - vvainioATnospamtp.spt.fi http://www.tp.spt.fi/~vvainio
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The first step on the path to understanding is seeing the strings
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