To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/09/28 02:37
Subject: Re: [K-list] Nature
From: Martin Thompson
On 1999/09/28 02:37, Martin Thompson posted thus to the K-list:
09:20:29 Tue, 28 Sep 1999
Ville Vainio at Ville Vainio <vvainioATnospamtp.spt.fi> writes:
>On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Martin Thompson wrote:
>
>> >I wouldn't call us nature's knowledge engines - we are just nature, plain
>> >and simple.
>>
>> The way I see it is that as we are part of the Universe, and we "know"
>> things (however we choose to define that for the sake of argument), then
>> we, the Universe, "knows" things. We are the Universe discovering
>> itself.
>
>I would say we are we, discovering the universe.
>
That is one way of looking at it; but it seems to assume that we are
separate from the rest of the Universe rather than an integral part of
it.
>> > Our "knowledge" is just pulses of electricity through neural
>> >cells.
>
>> Yeah. I trained as a physicist, but I don't buy the pulses of
>> electricity and neurones bit. Yes, they are there, and yes, they
>> correlate with reported thoughts and experiences, and yes, you can mess
>> people's experiences up by zapping their brains, but no, discharges in
>> the brain are not the same *type* of thing as a thought or an
>> experience. Consciousness is a big philosophical problem which we've
>
>It can't really be proved that thought or experience would be something
>different from neuronal activity.
>
Quite so. My point is somewhat the opposite: the problem with the
scientific approach (so far) to consciousness is that it can't be proved
that thought or experience is the same as neuronal activity, indeed it
is obvious (to me) that it requires more than that.
Now, clearly, consciousness arises in the brain somehow, but so far
science has apparently completely failed to come up with a mechanism
that makes sense. Neuronal activity is just that: neuronal activity. It
is *not* an experience, in the same way that a recipe is not a meal. The
link between the matter and the experience of it is missing from current
theories. If I write a complex computer program to mimic neuronal
activity, there is still nothing to show whether the computer is
conscious or not.
>> touched on before, but I just don't see how any configuration of matter
>> and energy can result in an "experience." A bunch of particles bumping
>
>
>4) It's natural for the DNA-vessels (us) to believe consciousness is
>something "special" - the belief is hard-coded into DNA, again for the
>sake of survival I would say. However, it is possible to transcend this
>illusion (not just scientifically, but intuitively) by plunging into the
>uncharted DNA-waters (mysticism). DNA holds loads of undocumented/not
>normally experienced features as we kundalites know very well.
>
It doesn't matter whether consciousness is "special." The question is,
how does it work? Pointing at molecules or complex programs, as
scientists and AI experts are prone to do, and saying "that's how"
doesn't actually explain anything. It is a logical error of types or
categories (recipe .NE. meal; electrical activity .NE. experience;
objective .NE. subjective).
It is easy to imagine a complex robot that can behave much as humans do,
but it is not clear how such a machine would have any experiences
because we have no idea at all how to give it that capacity.
>> >As Man is a part of nature, he can not act "out of balance". Everything is
>> >in balance, always. If Man ends up destroying earth, it is the Will of the
>> >universe, and it's perfect (how could anything be imperfect?). The
>> >destruction is just a process, and has no significance.
>> >
>> I agree, except that it does have a significance: the significance that
>> we choose to give it. Similarly, whether acts are in balance or out of
>
>And a banana is a starship, if we choose to call it that.
>
Quite correct. You are obviously a Zen master!
In my view, it is up to us to define the meaning of things, if we want
to, since as you say, nothing has any meaning outside of our
definitions.
--
Martin Thompson martinATnospamtucana.demon.co.uk
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.tucana.demon.co.uk
Free Regular Income: http://www.virtualis.com/vr/mthomps4/vrp.html
"Everything I do and say with anyone makes a difference." Gita Bellin
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