To: K-list
Recieved: 1999/09/20 11:12
Subject: Re: [K-list] seemingly stupid questions about K
From: Martin Thompson
On 1999/09/20 11:12, Martin Thompson posted thus to the K-list:
19:24:11 Mon, 20 Sep 1999
Ville Vainio at Ville Vainio <vvainioATnospamtp.spt.fi> writes:
>On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Martin Thompson wrote:
>
>> >It doesn't matter what the point is, it's a biological fact that the grip
>> >of ego will be weakened with awakening of k. It's not something you have
>> >to do or strive for, it just happens.
>> >
>> I think that that is the way with integration: it just happens (perhaps
>> when a certain amount of conscious and unconscious processing has been
>> done on whatever issue it was that needed to be integrated).
>
>I really don't understand what integrating the ego would mean. With what
>will it be integrated? Ego is quite simply a feeling, or a collection of
>feelings, in our head. And I have noticed the reduction in the intensity
>of those ego-feelings.
>
I don't really know either, of course. I just presume that it would be
integrated with the greater Self, i.e., all the rest of one's mental
what-have-you. As you say, Ego is a feeling, or as I like to think of
it, a collection of thoughts about who we "are". This fictional "person"
becomes integrated when it is congruent with the reality of our larger
selves. Well, I hope that makes sense, anyway! Once integrated, I would
expect it to be experienced as less central, that is, less important. It
would still be useful for dealing with the everyday world, but it would
no longer necessarily be thought of by yourself as the real "you".
>> > or a
>> >person that gets enlightenment does not exist anymore.
>
>> Yes and no. Certainly, the person as a body is still there, but whether
>
>Of course.
>
>> they exist otherwise I think depends on whether their ego has been
>> destroyed (Eastern style, they are reduced to being a social unit, i.e.,
>> less but whole) or integrated (Western style, they become more but
>> whole).
>
>I don't see the connection between eastern style ego destruction and
>"social unit". On the contrary, I think "social unit" is a more valid term
>for a person who is operating on the level of higher ego activity.
>
Well, maybe we're thinking of different things here; I'm not sure.
Certainly, from what I take to be your point of view, a person operating
at a higher level, the integrated person, will probably be more
beneficial to society: they may be the sort of person who gets things
done, who originates change, who solves problems. From my point of view,
a person operating without any appreciable ego will be a brainwashed
robot, suitable for doing the tasks society assigns its sheep. So I
think we are talking about opposite ends of the spectrum here.
I don't know if the Eastern religions regard their "enlightened"
subjects as brainwashed sheep, though... I suspect not!
>> >> Big deal. But if that's so, why does self-consciousness seem such a
>> >> barrier to it when that is part of who we are too?
>> >
>> >Part of what? What does "part of who we are" mean? This implies that there
>> >is something that we "are", which can "contain" other things. Which is not
>> >exactly true.
>
>> I don't really mean it in that sense: I mean it is an aspect, a feature,
>> a property.
>
>Yes, I understood that. The emphasis was not on "contain". I wanted to
>point out that self-consciousness being a feature of "who we are" is not
>really important, as "who we are" is not anything. Who is conscious of
>self? The self? Is there a perceiver that is conscious of self? I was
>thinking along those lines...
Then the philosophy suddenly gets very difficult... I've read numerous
philosophers of consciousness (Dennett, Searle, Minsky, and others), and
none of their answers are wholly satisfying. Krishnamurti had some
interesting things to say about it, but I've forgotten them so I'd
better re-read him!
--
Martin Thompson martinATnospamtucana.demon.co.uk
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.tucana.demon.co.uk
Free Regular Income: http://www.virtualis.com/vr/mthomps4/vrp.html
"Everything I do and say with anyone makes a difference." Gita Bellin
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