1998/06/27 18:49
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #482
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 482
Today's Topics: Re: Do chakras exist? [ "Paul West" ]
Re: Sound Meditation [ "Paul West" ] Re: Loss and Acceptance [ PShaw86324ATnospamaol.com ]
Re: Sound Meditation [ David Bozzi ] Re: Welcoming myself [ Orea ]
Re: Loss and Acceptance [ PShaw86324ATnospamaol.com ] Health Freedom [ David Bozzi ]
Re: Sound Meditation [ "Paul West" ] Enlightenment [ April May ]
Frogs [ David Bozzi ] Re: Enlightenment [ PShaw86324ATnospamaol.com ]
Date: 27 Jun 98 17:55:48 +0000 From: "Paul West"
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Do chakras exist?
Message-Id:
Dear Sharon,
> I came across this Ken Wilbur quote on another list and I would like to hear > your opinions about it.
Careful who you invite ;-)
> "And yet, strictly speaking, final liberation, being the timeless > and therefore eternal condition of all worlds and selves, is not
> so much the _result_ of the _action_ of untying these knots, but > rather the tacit acknowledgment that these knots do not, and
> cannot, obstruct ultimate consciousness. Liberation, in short, > is not the actual untying of these knots, but the silent admission
> that they are already untied. Herein lies the key to the paradox > of the chakras: They are ultimately dissolved in the realization
> that they need not be dissolved."
In my experience this is true and have seen it countless times in myself.
When the clearwaters of the mind become cloudy, selflessness takes on
its ego equivelant, which is to play down its size and be unresponsible for its influences. It sees that there is something
projected onto the world and associates the worldly thing /as/ the projection. IOW, it doesn't like the look of a car so the car has to
go. Because the ego has the attitude about the object, the world, it can see no other way but to remove the object in order to remove the
horror. It wants to stick around to see that this has been successful and has every intention of continuity. It punishes its own attitude
towards the world, which is an attitude towards itself. It's inherantly fragmented and contradictory and transcendence in the eyes
of the ego is much a case of `out of sight, out of mind', with a heavy dose of avoidance. In extremes the ego sees nothing but the whole
world telling it to escape, and it wants nothing but to escape from that message, and the only way to overcome it being to stay there and
face the music is not something that looks terribly attractive.
There are lots of bits in the world that I personally don't like, and I have always thought that the way they appear to me is inherant to
what they are. Everytime they arrive on the scene there is the same impression, as if the thing itself carries around that impression. But
this is no so, and I egotistically want to be physically distant from such things sometimes out of fear. It's the whole hide and seek game
that can only be played in a continuum of space-time. I am however becoming more aware as I think most people are, that things are not
all they appear to be, and if you poke your head forwards through the veil you can somewhat face what is really there and not what you are
unknowingly adding. There has been times when I thought there is no way I can survive in the world the way it is, and how I looked for
there to be change coming from outside. But the only way is change within and it does not remove any part of the physical world, only
your interprative measures. Such is forgiveness. You wouldn't say that to forgive someone you have to eliminate them.
No, when you accept the state of play it has no altering influence on
what happens. Best to try and leave it up to God to sort out the universe.
> "Finally, therefore, the chakras are not real -- in the sense
> that they do not pose a barrier to self-realization, nor do they > constitute mandatory stages in an upward climb to liberation. In
> the last analysis, there are no stages in eternity -- nor any > ladder _to_ the infinite that does not begin _with_ the infinite.
I agree with this also. I am not sure to what extent it is my life
though. By all intents and purposes now is the first moment of existence. Beginning and end, alpha an omega, and other biblical
references to what God is.
Not sure how it relates to chakras specifically. Like I was trying to say the other day, maybe kundalini is at its purest when there /isn't/
a need for activity. At some point surely we have to be willing to accept that the job is finished?
> "Do not waste time meditating on chakras, nadis, padmas, or mantras
> of deities, or anything else of the kind. The six subtle centers > (chakras) are merely mental pictures and are meant for beginners in
> yoga."
I couldn't have put that part better myself. All the hullabuloo about meditating and techniques and raising K and playing with energies, it
is not necessary.
> "And yet -- and this is the point to which much of our discussion > must be directed -- the chakras do _appear_ real to the separate
> self who constructs these knots in his flight both from death > and from a prior unity with all manifestation....."
I found it intriguing the reference to `knots' Sharon. Very graphic.
Maybe k activity is a sign that there's some crap in you, just as
people who carry healing crystals are probably ill.
-- Paul.
IRC: #amiga, Dalnet: #blitz
WWW: http://www.stationone.demon.co.uk E-M: paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:05:40 PDT From: "Alan Gaskins"
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Welcoming myself
Message-ID:
NAMASTE Y"ALL
my name is Alan and I'm new here. Look forward to much enlightenment. Will be relating more soon, just wanted to say hello.
Everything is relative to the mind, including the mind itself.
______________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:36:17 -0600
From: jason spencer To: "kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com"
Subject: Re: Sound Meditation Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
>
> > I sometimes correlate this with a vision of what looks like zillions
> of atoms, with red and green molecules, spinning tightly about each > other. It is very hard to focus in close on any one pattern, but
> sometimes I get a close glimpse. I've been seeing these since I was > a small child.
> > Any idea on what this is?
> > Thanks again!
> > Cathy
> > ***************
> Samuel wrote: >
> >Many scriptures make strong > >connection between the inner sound and the source. Some suggest
> >that the sound and the source are one and the same. "In the > >beginning was the word, the word was with God and the world was
> >God." In translation, "word" was used instead of "Logos" >
Hello Cathy and Samuel,
I am the person who wrote about the lightning. Hello, I have learned
through my experieces that "intention and desire" are key. If theres complete passion behind what you send out it will have a definate
result. If your intune with the current live flow *live tv* and are passionate with your intentions Ive found the effect to be as immediate
as that moment. I experiment with live tv. The news people for sure. I think that you definatlely have to be positve and with love because
Karma is real..... Im interested in Joshua and the battle of Jahrico. Is this in the bible
? and what refrences in bible have to do with past lives?
Samual what do you mean by Logos. I may be the only one who doesnt get it but Im glad Im asking. Thank you from me too on the info on tuneing
into the aum.
And Cathy get this your refrence to zillions of atoms, with red and green molecules, spinning.......
My husband who thinks Im crazy too, sees molecules too. He has these questions: Do you see yellow dots too?
After meditation are the dots more focused?
During meditation do the dots form a hexagon tightly woven together?
Okie Dokie Love and Peace
Aimee Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:22:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: SpiritDeeATnospamwebtv.net (DEE Buczek) To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Loss and Acceptance Message-ID:
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Hi All,
I have been reading the posts regarding loss and acceptance and want to
thank you Jim about reminding me of the stages of grief. My daughter has cancer, she was in remission but the doctor has noticed new growth. She
is scheduled to take radiation treatments again starting next week for 3 days in a row each week for I don't know how long. Last time it was for
about 4 months. I guess I thought she had it licked and was surprised that the cancer came back so suddenly.
I live with her, my son-in-law and 4 year old granddaughter. We found
out about the cancer soon after I divorced and moved here (SC) from Florida. It has been quite a year and a half. I'm very glad to be here
for them, I've been able to help with my granddaughter and do things like help clean up, pick up a bucket of chicken or Chinese food if my
daughter didn't feel like cooking, etc.
So I have found myself sorting through my feelings since learning of this new round of cancer. Sometimes I try to put it out of mind, or just
concentrate on one day at a time. That's all any of us have anyway. I will definitely go to the library and re-check Kubler-Ross's books. I
had inquired about a cancer support group but there are no evening groups here for me to attend.
Thanks again for the input regarding this subject and all the other
subjects that are commented on, I really enjoy receiving the list each day.
Love,
Dee Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 13:11:21 -0600
From: jason spencer To: "kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com"
Subject: Re: Welcoming myself Message-ID:
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------739128AB80D61FE95D07A78A"
Alan Gaskins wrote:
NAMASTE Y"ALL my name is Alan and I'm new here. Look forward to much enlightenment.
Will be relating more soon, just wanted to say hello. Everything is relative to the mind, including
the mind itself.
Hi Alan and congradulations on finding the list. I know you'll find it a very valueable tool.
Peace to you Aimee
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 13:16:59 -0600
From: jason spencer To: "kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com"
Subject: Re: Sound Meditation Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Cathy,
I think that you and everyone may benefit from the book "the powers of thought" by Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov. He is a master and very elegant in
his speeking.
Love and Light, Aimee
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:58:12 -0400 From: David Bozzi
To: jason spencer , Kundalini Subject: Re: Sound Meditation
Message-ID:
jason spencer wrote:
> I am the person who wrote about the lightning. Hello, I have learned > through my experieces that "intention and desire" are key.
During a thunderstorm I once shouted out, "Come and get me!"Instantaneously
a lightning bolt shot about ten feet or so from an open window. Needless to say I only have soothing words for lightning now.
Date: 27 Jun 98 21:05:19 +0000 From: "Paul West"
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Sound Meditation
Message-Id:
> During a thunderstorm I once shouted out, "Come and get me!"Instantaneously > a lightning bolt shot about ten feet or so from an open window.
> Needless to say I only have soothing words for lightning now.
Do you think perhaps it the expression of that thought was an intuition that it was about to be so?
--
Paul.
IRC: #amiga, Dalnet: #blitz WWW: http://www.stationone.demon.co.uk
E-M: paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:03:56 -0600
From: "Roberto Gonzales del Valle" To:
Cc: Subject: RE: your close friend's passing
Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I year ago, my best friends dad killed himself.
He was the least person you would expect to do that. Member of a traditional, aparently happy family.
My friend and I became aware of many things together. We became aware, by
experience of the inmortality of the soul.
He was very depressed-like. But after his father died, which hurt him so much and by bridge, hurted me too, he became stronger.
For a long time I visited him and stayed in his room both silent, just
feeling confort in our company. Once he decided to talk. I won´t repeat what he said. But I understood very
clear that the related person doesn´t die, the expectatives for the future don´t just fade. Now you hold in your heart the expectatives both had. It is
very hard to explain. But she is with you. And you will bear with the suffering she had to but remember that you also share the bliss she is in
now. Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:41:20 -0400
From: "Ed Arrons" To: "Paul West" ,
Subject: Re: paul west Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Dear Paul,
I'm glad I didn't waver for a moment, even in that APAULING storm,
in thinking that you are a loving and caring human being from whom
we all have much to learn.
Thanks for being here.
E.A. Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:27:14 EDT
From: PShaw86324ATnospamaol.com To: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Cc: kristinATnospamaol.com Subject: Re: Loss and Acceptance
Message-ID:
About grief, I think both things happen. Transcending time and time heals.
Liz Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:52:19 -0400
From: David Bozzi To: Kundalini
Subject: Re: Sound Meditation Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Paul West wrote:
> Do you think perhaps it the expression of that thought was an
> intuition that it was about to be so?
Time is not linear. This can be proved to even a skeptic through the observations in contemporary quantum physics. From the Big View i won't
pretend to know.
>From the little view i take it as a lesson in humbleness. Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:59:57 -0400
From: Orea To: "Alan Gaskins"
Cc: Kundalini l list Subject: Re: Welcoming myself
Message-Id:
> NAMASTE Y"ALL
>my name is Alan and I'm new here. Look forward to much enlightenment. >Will be relating more soon, just wanted to say hello.
> Everything is relative to the mind, including the mind itself. >
> >______________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Welcome! I look forward to getting to know you.
Orea Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:54:50 EDT
From: PShaw86324ATnospamaol.com To: SpiritDeeATnospamwebtv.net, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Loss and Acceptance Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Hi Dee,
You may want to read some of Dr. Bernie Segal's books. One is "Love, Medicine
and Miracles"
Liz Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:14:38 -0400
From: David Bozzi To: Kundalini
Subject: Health Freedom Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I'm gonna go way off topic but I feel a good amount of subscribers would
be interested in this site and perhaps participate in some way regarding our freedom
for using nutritional supplements. This site is quite extensive,frequently updated and covers
the issues worldwide. (I have no affiliation other than genuine concern regarding freedom and
health issues)
Unfortunately I am not being fanatical when I say the pharmaceutical industries
(worldwide) and the FDA are hiding information, lying to the public, (FDA has been
recently burning books regarding info on the herb stevia for example) to preserve
sickness and disease in favor of the almighty $.
http://www.iahf.com/index1.html Date: 27 Jun 98 22:55:51 +0000
From: "Paul West" To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Sound Meditation Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Do you think perhaps it the expression of that thought was an
> > intuition that it was about to be so? >
> Time is not linear. This can be proved to even a skeptic through the > observationsin contemporary quantum physics. From the Big View i won't pretend to
> know. > From the little view i take it as a lesson in humbleness.
:) You don't need quantum physics to know about time. I am not sure,
though, how your comment makes any reference to intuition?
-- Paul.
IRC: #amiga, Dalnet: #blitz
WWW: http://www.stationone.demon.co.uk E-M: paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk
Date: 27 Jun 98 23:00:05 +0000 From: "Paul West"
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Loss and Acceptance
Message-Id:
> About grief, I think both things happen. Transcending time and time heals.
About time, not that grief is unimportant, I think it is rather that enough change heals. Even if a person is locked in an continuum of
spacetime (ego) the whole of nature continues to do what it does best. It is inevitable that everything will be alright in the end.
--
Paul.
IRC: #amiga, Dalnet: #blitz WWW: http://www.stationone.demon.co.uk
E-M: paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:43:58 EDT
From: PShaw86324ATnospamaol.com To: david.bozziATnospamsnet.net, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Health Freedom Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
What the F******!!!!!!!!!!????????? This reminds me of the "updated" story
about the frogs. Now the other frogs are eating them, they say, and that's why they are missing limbs.
Liz
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 18:49:33 -0600 From: "Roberto Gonzales del Valle"
To: "Paul West" Cc: "Kundalini List"
Subject: RE: Loss and Acceptance Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Now you see, Paul why you should stay? -----Original Message-----
>> About grief, I think both things happen. Transcending time and time heals.
> >About time, not that grief is unimportant, I think it is rather that
>enough change heals. Even if a person is locked in an continuum of >spacetime (ego) the whole of nature continues to do what it does best.
>It is inevitable that everything will be alright in the end. >
>-- >Paul.
> >IRC: #amiga, Dalnet: #blitz
>WWW: http://www.stationone.demon.co.uk >E-M: paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:02:42 +0100 From: "jb"
To: "K. list" , Subject: RE: Do chakras exist?
Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Sharon wrote:
> Hi, >
> I came across this Ken Wilbur quote on another list and I would > like to hear
> your opinions about it. >
> Thanks, >
> Sharon > ------------------
> "And yet, strictly speaking, final liberation, being the timeless > and therefore eternal condition of all worlds and selves, is not
> so much the _result_ of the _action_ of untying these knots, but > rather the tacit acknowledgment that these knots do not, and
> cannot, obstruct ultimate consciousness. Liberation, in short, > is not the actual untying of these knots, but the silent admission
> that they are already untied. Herein lies the key to the paradox > of the chakras: They are ultimately dissolved in the realization
> that they need not be dissolved."
Jan: The untying of knots is something that can be observed. A lake in the desert
can be observed too and this bears the name of fata morgana. Much more can be observed like the various states of mind: anger, fear, delusion, pride,
grief etc. These states could be labeled as unreal too, because some of them will evaporate even before liberation. As Self exists without a cause, it is
correct to state that there cannot be a cause (like untying knots) for its realization. The term Self-realization is contradictory; it is a term "for
the sake of argument" for those who are "on the path".
Sharon: > "Finally, therefore, the chakras are not real -- in the sense
> that they do not pose a barrier to self-realization, nor do they > constitute mandatory stages in an upward climb to liberation. In
> the last analysis, there are no stages in eternity -- nor any > ladder _to_ the infinite that does not begin _with_ the infinite.
> That the chakras in themselves are not real is the conclusion of > most of the great sages, siddhas, mystics, and masters, such as
> Krishnamurti, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Shankara, Bubba Free John, > and virtually all Ch'an and Zen masters. To quote but one, the
> illustrious Sri Ramana Maharshi: "Do not waste time meditating on > chakras, nadis, padmas, or mantras of deities, or anything else
> of the kind. The six subtle centers (chakras) are merely mental > pictures and are meant for beginners in yoga."
Jan:
One of the great sages isn't mentioned here, the Buddha. He was so kind as to describe almost all K. phenomena ( for obvious reasons, he left out the
sound OM) that occur at the two most memorable events in life: attaining nirvana with substratum remaining and nirvana without substratum. The other
sages forget(?) to mention, that in the state of liberation (nirvana without substratum) many other things cannot be observed anymore. A liberated one
has neither body-feelings nor emotions whatsoever; all this is transformed into knowing. Of course, the chakra system isn't observed anymore too. So
IMO it is rather incomplete to declare that chakras etc. do not exist, because many other topics will cease to exist too. What the other sages
meant is that Self-realization and liberation will take place even without any knowledge about chakras etc.. So knowledge about chakras, K. etc. will
not produce any advantage, but could lead to harmful superstitions and of course this has happened. One example is breath-retention. A liberated one
is free from the urge to breathe; he can leave the body at any time, in full consciousness. Onlookers observe a person capable of unbelievably long
breath-retention. Using the rule: "As you meditate, so you become", breath-retention is practiced as a means to liberation. An utterly useless
practice of course.
Sharon: > "And yet -- and this is the point to which much of our discussion
> must be directed -- the chakras do _appear_ real to the separate > self who constructs these knots in his flight both from death
> and from a prior unity with all manifestation....."
Jan: Self is the Seer, mind belongs to the seen and chakras, knots, K.,
emotions, body-feelings etc. are part of the mind. A part that in the course of time can be transformed completely. Only then, it will be clear that
there never was anything else but the Self. As a final note, I could add that because Self is without a cause, it cannot be attained by meditation as
well. Although true, it is a useless statement because of the obvious conclusion, meditation is as useless as untying knots. What has to happen is
the removal of a veil that seems to be real as long as one is conscious of its effects, but appears to have been unreal (non existent) as soon as it
is transformed. IMO, anything that helps with the removal of the veil is OK, including untying knots of chakras, as long as the goal isn't forgotten.
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:45:44 -0700 (PDT) From: April May
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Enlightenment
Message-ID:
Hi Listers!
I'm a periodic lurker on the k list. I've come up with several
questions for you:
1. Is anyone on the list enlightened? 2. What is enlightenment?
3. How would an enlightened person's day-to-day actions or experiences differ from an unenlightened person's day-to-day
experiences? 4. Does anyone have any good book recommendations about this subject?
Thanks for your responses.
April
_________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free ATnospamyahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:28:32 -0400
From: David Bozzi To: PShaw86324ATnospamaol.com, Kundalini
Subject: Frogs Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
PShaw86324ATnospamaol.com wrote:
> What the F******!!!!!!!!!!????????? This reminds me of the "updated" story
> about the frogs. Now the other frogs are eating them, they say, and that's > why they are missing limbs.
No you got it all wrong. A lizard hired a ferret to 'take care of the frogs.'
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:23:10 EDT From: PShaw86324ATnospamaol.com
To: aprill2468ATnospamyahoo.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Enlightenment
Message-ID:
Oh no, here we go again....!!!!!!!!!!
Liz
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