1998/05/28 12:38
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #412
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 412
Today's Topics: Re: meat&sin&laughter [ Anurag Goel ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ Mystress Angelique Serpent ] Re: karma [ "Roberto Gonzales del Valle"
To: Ann Morrison Fisher cc: Anurag Goel , kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Ann, I just meant to say that things can can be said and explained in
a nicer way. Nice words will create love. Even if one wants to show anger it can be done with nice language. Rather the things can be
better explained and percieved if it is done with love.
I am saying nothing about whether what Danijel said was right or wrong.
Love, anurag
On Thu, 28 May 1998, Ann Morrison Fisher wrote:
> >Babaji, Sai Baba, Mahaprabhuji, Madhavananda, Maheswarananda, Lahiri Mahasaya, > >Sri Yuktesvar, Yogananda... They also wouldn't have used the words you had
> >used to explain something. > >
> >Love, > >Anurag
> > Anurag!! It's not nice to take out part of a person's words so as to
> distort his meaning - and then criticize the result! In fact, it's > underhanded and sneaky! Would Babaji, Sai Baba, Mahaprabhuji,
> Madhavananda, Maheswarananda, Lahiri Mahasaya, Sri Yuktesvar, and Yogananda > have done that?
> > Below is the original quote so everyone can see what was really said.
> > Love,
> Ann >
> >>Antoine: > >>"Detached service, when there is a detachment in relation to the fruit of
> >>our action, it helps us to free us of from the illusion that we are beings > >>acting as separated from the Divine".
> >>Govindan, Babaji and 18 siddha kriya yoga tradition > >
> >Danijel: > >Are you serious with this? I have another one, if you sin without
> >attachment you go to hell without it, too. The law of karma applies to you > >too, you know? You can allow yourself to commit any crime against anyone if
> >you use your logic - nonduality, detachment. Great. Fuck both then. > >Those words are not meant to be applied in a manner you apply them. Babaji,
> >Sai Baba, Mahaprabhuji, Madhavananda, Maheswarananda, Lahiri Mahasaya, Sri > >Yuktesvar, Yogananda... They were all vegetarians, and STRONGLY advocated
> >vegetarian diet. STRONGLY. If some person here thinks his/her new fuckin' > >age opinion is more valid, and will have more weight, well I don't think
> >so! Not in my book. It seems to me that you are all advocating "do whatever > >pleases you" attitude. Well, it's OK, if it means love & no harm. But it
> >seems to include other things too, of which I disapprove. > >It is one thing to say "eating meat is not a good thing, but I have to do
> >it because my body will die/not function properly without it, so I have no > >choice but to accept it with gratitude and devotion", and "eating meat is
> >good because I'm on the top of the food chain" is completely another. The > >first I accept with love, the second I fuck in the arrogant ass with a pile
> >driver. >
> E-mail : sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr > Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377
> >
> Date: 28 May 98 15:05:38 +0000
From: "Paul West" To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: karma Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sharon Webb:
> If the past is illusion, as Sai Baba says, and if all time is simultaneous,
> then there is no cause and effect from "past lives." Instead all existence > is in the now including "past" lives and karma is a two-way street of
> dynamic psychic influences from one existence to another.
So what if Sai says that the past is illusion. Find it out for yourself. See it for yourself, to remove that `if' that worships.
Thought is time and it springs from the attatchment to states of
reality that have been and gone. Thought is illusion so time is illusion. That doesn't mean it's there or that you ignore it when it
is. History and all of the past had a starting point. Eternity existed before that. Time will come to an end. Eternity will exist beyond
that. And the eternity is now. Time is like a line running left to right, quite finite.
There is only now. There is no movement away from the present
infinity. The universe flows in, through, and around us, and measurements of this transformation is what we call time. But we do
not move along a path, or travel on a journey. We are always here, never moving away. The universe transforms around us, coming and
going, but we are always in the only day.
When you know yourself and the person you have always been and always will be, which really is quite a surprising thing finding that God
awlays was there but you `spent time' ignoring him, you will see this.
-- Paul.
IRC: #amiga, Dalnet: #blitz
WWW: http://www.stationone.demon.co.uk E-M: paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk
Date: 28 May 98 15:09:19 +0000 From: "Paul West"
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: primates and meat
Message-Id:
Susan Carlson:
> I wish I could remember the name of the documentary I saw where > chimpanzees hunt for meat and sometimes the large adult males eat the
> babies. Caused quite a scandal when it was discovered I think.
I saw a program about this recently. I was a bit shocked at first. Especially when seeing adult lions killing the young of the females in
order to enforce them into heat ready for mating.
> There are quite a bit of physiological differences between humans on a > microscopic or cellular scale...divinity in diversity.
I think the only difference between animals and people is that people
have the capability of chosen transformation.
-- Paul.
IRC: #amiga, Dalnet: #blitz
WWW: http://www.stationone.demon.co.uk E-M: paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:15:43 PDT From: "Susan Carlson"
To: divine_goddessATnospamhotmail.com, hc19436ATnospamautovia.com Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: RE: primates and meat Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain
>Jan: >The males kill (and eat) babies in order to secure their own offspring.
It >is a widespread phenomenon and there have been many articles about it
in >magazines like New Scientist. Male lions will kill and eat pups also
when >they get the chance.
I understand that part. The part that most find unusual is that
chimpanzees will suppliment their diet with meat and do so by hunting in organized packs. They are omnivores.
>Jan: >When it comes to the capability of digesting protein rich food, all
humans >are the same: they can't process the damaging uric acid.
Actually no human being can process uric acid in its end state. It is a metabolic byproduct of the metabolism of purines. Purines and
pyrimidrine nucleotides are major components of DNA and RNA and function in all cellular processes. Most often people know of their (the purines)
source in organ meats and certain rich foods. Uric acid is secreted by the kidneys into the urine. There are certain pathological conditions
that will cause the retention of uric acid with comcomittant problems and symptoms.
The origin of the
>protein is of course utterly unimportant. So it has nothing to do with >veg(etari)anism. But as a rule, veg*ans have a much lower protein
intake >than those who consume meat.
Yes, very true.
>> >Susan:
>> Just because it works for some people doesn't mean it works for others.
>> Why do people have such a hard time believing that? Why do they question
>> and believe somewhere or somehow you are not just doing it right because
>> if I did it 'correctly' I would have the same results as they do or if
>> you or I am not following their dietary standards we are assumed to be
>> weak willed or psychologically imbalanced or morally impaired? That is
>> quite the advertisement for the 'benefits' of being vegetarian. >
>Jan: >Apart from the uric acid problem that evolution didn't solve even for
the >Eskimos, there is the problem of lymphocytosis.
Lymphocytosis (the production of B or T cells in the bone marrow)is a
natural response to foreign invasion of the body or bodily injury. Its an indicator of the immune system jumping into action. I am not sure
what the problem is except when a blood test shows they are immature and/and or in large amouts (luekemia type problems) or severely depleted
(immune deficiency type diseases). Since lymphocytes naturally comprise 25-35% of our blood volume you may be talking about an abnormally high
level in the blood.
The vast majority of animals
>are consuming living food; only scavengers don't. Humans need living food
>too, but by cooking and processing food to death, they denature food so that
>it causes lymphocytosis. Again, this has nothing to do with being veg*an or
>meat-eater.
I dont think lymphocytosis in itself is a problem, at least what is considered in the norms today for lab tests, its more of an indicator
that something may be imbalanced...and to discover what is imbalanced needs a more thoughtful examination than just one indicator. A whole
lifestyle/physical/emotional etc. assessment would be indicated including trending of data, something that historically has been sadly
lacking in traditional *and* alternative health care.
>> >Susan:
>> Kinda like calling someone an inferior human because their body grows >> brown hair or they lack a specific enzyme, dontcha think?
> >Jan:
>Really? There are health books, stating that the diet of raw, animal food
>that the Masai (African tribe) are using is healthier than the processed
>veg*an diet of many Westerners. The Masai are drinking unprocessed milk and
>fresh blood from their cows. This practice keeps the Masai's blood alkaline,
>as opposed to the Eskimo's where blood becomes too acid. Because the Masai
>need their animals alive, it causes far less suffering for the animals, as
>compared to the fate of animals in Western slaughterhouses.
Reading John Robbins book, Diet for A New America, was the reason I went vegetarian. Horrifying, yes....and yet the choice for me is who shall
live? I do my best to eat animals who are raised as 'humanely' as possible. It cost more for sure and I am making an informed choice. Such
a commentary when 'humaneness' is best afforded by those who have money.
Somewhere I came >across a phrase, stating that humans have a better knowledge about
their car >than about their own body. Then, I was highly surprised. Now, I know
the >reason: cars don't reincarnate :-)
Actually, consumers tend to be more and more informed about their bodies than they do their cars in my experience as a nurse. Now the quality of
the information is a different story all together... :)
I think there will always be vigorous debate on this question...people seem to be attached to their food. LOL! If anything it sure brings up
areas for K fire to work in cleaning out emotional debris in attachment to the 'rightness' of a path in what people put in their mouths.
Those of us who are old timers on the list have seen this issue come up
several times each year...and there is always a flame war...if not maybe some little brush fires....on who's way is best, the most spiritual, the
most loving, the most informed, the most moral. Who ever is the most at what seems to create an illusory valley of separation for awhile. :)))
Its an interesting exercise for me to observe how i can create distance and isolation from others just on the basis of an attachment to ideas.
Much love, Susan
Sacred cows make the best hamburger.
---Mark Twain
______________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:17:15 -0400 From: Mike Stickles
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: RE: Violence/spanking (was RE: Unidentified subject!)
Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="---- =_NextPart_001_01BD8A5C.7F8B45A0"
RE: Violence/spanking (was RE: Unidentified subject!)
Amckeon wrote:
<< Violence begats violence. Spanking a child teaches her that when someone does something you do not like, it is okay to use violence to control them. >>
I've not found the second statement to be true in my own experience. Of course, I would not equate spanking with violence, either.
When I give one of my children a spanking, it usually takes about five minutes, with only about five seconds of that for the actual "swats". Before the swats, we review the offense and why it was wrong; afterwards, I hold the child for a while, he or she asks forgiveness from whoever was wronged (if applicable), and then we role-play the proper way to behave in the situation.
My wife and I also make sure that spankings are limited to the most serious offences (defiant rebellion, disobedience which could have led to someone getting hurt, etc) and that we maintain the child's dignity when spanking (done in private, don't make them pull down their pants, affirm our love for them, etc). Also, we allow them to talk with us freely about what they don't like or don't agree with in what we do as parents (as long as they do so respectfully), so that they don't feel rebellion is their only way to say "I don't like that", and we accomodate them when it's possible and reasonable.
The kids seem to see that spankings as a consequence for rebellious disobedience do not equate to violence against others. All four of them deplore violence (physical or verbal) and try to "make peace" if anything breaks out in a group they're playing with. The girls especially are so sensitive to it that they'll even run away from the TV if an argument breaks out on a show we're watching (part of the reason we watch almost no TV anymore). But those kinds of reactions do not set in with a spanking (and it's not just because it's Mom and Dad doing it - they react strongly when my wife and I argue, even lightly - fortunately, we don't argue much).
Now, on the other hand, if by "spanking" you refer to hauling off and smacking the kid across the face without warning when they mess up, I'll heartily agree with the original premise. But to me, that's abuse, not spanking.
- Mike
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:06:55 -0700
From: Mystress Angelique Serpent To: Ann Morrison Fisher
Cc: Anurag Goel , kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-Id:
At 06:47 AM 28/05/98 -0500, Ann Morrison Fisher wrote:
>Anurag!! It's not nice to take out part of a person's words so as to >distort his meaning - and then criticize the result! In fact, it's
>underhanded and sneaky! Would Babaji, Sai Baba, Mahaprabhuji, >Madhavananda, Maheswarananda, Lahiri Mahasaya, Sri Yuktesvar, and Yogananda
>have done that? >
>Below is the original quote so everyone can see what was really said. >
>Love, >Ann
>>Danijel said: It is one thing to say "eating meat is not a good thing, but I have to do
>>it because my body will die/not function properly without it, so I have no >>choice but to accept it with gratitude and devotion", and "eating meat is
>>good because I'm on the top of the food chain" is completely another. The >>first I accept with love, the second I fuck in the arrogant ass with a pile
>>driver.
Ann, everybody got the original post.. we all saw it.. thought you weren't gonna "mediate" anymore.. ?? Grrrl can't help it..
In case you hadn't noticed.. it's not nice to threaten to violently anally rape someone with a large metal object if they disagree with you.
Ah, those sweet, gentle Vegans.... rhinos and bull elephants.. so tolerant and mild.
You are not a vegetarian, are you, Ann?? Hope you find pile drivers erotic..
Blessings, M. Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:04:46 EDT
From: WEIVODAATnospamaol.com To: msticklesATnospamaurum.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Violence/spanking (was RE: Unidentified subject!) Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
In a message dated 98-05-28 13:18:37 EDT, you write:
>Now, on the other hand, if by "spanking" you refer to hauling off and
>smacking the kid across the face without warning when they mess up, I'll >heartily agree with the original premise. But to me, that's abuse, not
>spanking.
I agree with everything you said abut spanking for when a child is disobedient but also feel there is a thin line that divides spanking, and spanking for
violence. I remember being spanked as a young child, I always understood why and what made me deserve it. Then also I was in a abuse home, I would be used
almost as a punching bag, so my parents could release there anger. Spanking is such a touche subject, but if the fine line is never crossed then it is a good
in some reason. As I grew older though, I never could tell if sometimes it was spanking or if it was violence, it crossed that very thin line.
I do believe though, that violence begats violence in some ways. I never grew out to be a violent person, cause when I was young, I think I was seven or so,
I remember making a promise with my self, I also wrought it on a piece paper so I would never forget, I said that I would never use violence of any kind
against another person, like what my parents have done with me, cause I did not want to grow up to be like them. I still have that piece of paper today, I
have never broken that promise with myself. I must say though that promise has also brought much pain to me, since I have followed it so well.
Love,
Kristin Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:30:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Debora A. Orf" To: Mike Stickles
cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: RE: Violence/spanking (was RE: Unidentified subject!)
Message-ID:
On Thu, 28 May 1998, Mike Stickles wrote:
> Amckeon wrote:
> < Violence begats violence. Spanking a child teaches her that > when someone does something you do not like, it is okay to use violence
> to control them. >> >
> I've not found the second statement to be true in my own experience. Of > course, I would not equate spanking with violence, either.
>
in our martial arts studio, when a child talks back to an adult, they usually get extra practise or a 'time out'.
spanking *is* violence. it goes back to intent. i for one believe it is
never ever ok to hit a child. Unless you are going to keep the child from harming herself. My parents did it too, usually when they ran out of other
options. i could be a rather troublesome child to raise, i never quite saw things like other children.
a spanked child, at least if you were me, just felt like total crap and
tended to either turn the anger inward on myself or turn it outward. Violence begets violence. i never wanted to harm anything else, so i
tended to harm myself.
one time i used a word of profanity and my father slapped my face. i felt shocked/angry/surprised. it was one thing to yell at me, another to
actually *hit* me. my father was not abusive either. for a moment i think he just reacted.
one should not harm other beings. when i started spirtual practise i had a
*ton* of anger and fear that came up. some of it came from parental discipline. some from someone who actually did some real abuse to me. i
just hope i cut off that karma where it started and pacified its results. Human life is precious, its a rare oppurtunity that is hard to win.
ok enuf ranting from janpa.
a few people asked me why i sign off with 'janpa' instead of 'debora'.
Janpa Tsomo is my buddhist name. the word 'maitri' means 'lovingkindness', so i use it like love, at the end of a letter.
maitri,
--janpa Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:41:27 +0100
From: "Lobster" To: "Kundalini - L" ,
Subject: Re: Ammachi (was Re. meat&sin&laughter) Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The accursed Lobster wrote, >>A wonderful lady surrounded by idiots (like most
>>Gurus). People think by attaching themselves to anothers virtue they will >>make progress. When they find they must make efforts they usually go and
>>find something easier to do.
And blessed Alan wrote >A tree is known by its fruits. The best way to assess any guru is to look
>closely at those around him/her. All gurus attract some from the fringes and
>those who want an easy ride, but any true guru will recognise these and seek
>to change and help them. Even idiots are entitled to spiritual teaching, >aren't they? And a great deal can be achieved by emulation; simply being in
>the close proximity of a great soul like Ammachi will have a profound effect
>of its own.
My Dear Sir, How right you are. Even an idiot like me is entitled to spiritual teaching.
I should not refer to these worthy Chelas as idiots, obviously my own Guru has not taught me the basic qualities of kindness and polite speech. Well.
The next time I see the unworthy, good for nothing, Guru Swami Harish - I am going to give him *a damn good thrashing* and demand that he teach me
kindness - he really should be teaching me better.
>Knowing Ammachi and her entourage as I do, I have a healthy respect for
many >of her devotees. I also know she is quite a taskmaster with her disciples,
>certainly no pushover.
>However, I know this is not the case universally, so I accept your >point................
You may accept my point *but I do not*. How dare I judge others . . . mind you that is a judgement on myself . . . *How dare I judge myself*
Swami Harish has got a lot to answer for! If he developed himself a bit quicker I would not be in this total turmoil but would have instruction on
correct thinking . . . I might even be able to take up Kundalini snake charming . . .
>Herewith another 5cl of blessing for you, but don't drink it all at once >Alan
Yum Lobster (slurping)
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:42:11 -0500 From: "Roberto Gonzales del Valle"
To: "Sharon Webb" Cc: "Kundalini List"
Subject: Re: karma Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>If the past is illusion, as Sai Baba says, and if all time is simultaneous, >then there is no cause and effect from "past lives." Instead all existence
>is in the now including "past" lives and karma is a two-way street of >dynamic psychic influences from one existence to another.
The past has been and the future will be. Every action has a re-action.
Even though it is all one totallity and time means nothing in the long run. We are not to understand it. But we can feel it.
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:47:51 -0500 (CDT) From: "Debora A. Orf"
To: Roberto Gonzales del Valle cc: Sharon Webb , Kundalini List ,
kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Re: karma
Message-ID:
On Thu, 28 May 1998, Roberto Gonzales del Valle wrote:
> The past has been and the future will be. Every action has a re-action.
> Even though it is all one totallity and time means nothing in the long run. > We are not to understand it. But we can feel it.
why not understand it?
Not everything is perceptable, but a lot can be grokked.
*shrug*
--janpa
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:56:21 -0500 From: Ann Morrison Fisher
To: Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Harsha: Quoting Danijel to defend Danijel does not serve the intended purpose.
Ann: I did not defend Danijel, nor did I think he needed defending. I corrected
a gross distortion of his words by reposting the original.
>Anurag!! It's not nice to take out part of a person's words so as to >distort his meaning - and then criticize the result! In fact, it's
>underhanded and sneaky! >
>Below is the original quote so everyone can see what was really said.
I would do the same thing for anyone whose words I saw so distorted. Of course, if I did it for someone other than Danijel, it wouldn't have
bothered you.
>Danijel should follow the teaching of his Guru Sri Pehswani Ji >who advocates Samta.
Another distortion - you know perfectly well that Peswani is not Danijel's
guru. Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:59:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Debora A. Orf" To: Ann Morrison Fisher
cc: Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-ID:
On Thu, 28 May 1998, Ann Morrison Fisher wrote:
> >Danijel should follow the teaching of his Guru Sri Pehswani Ji > >who advocates Samta.
whatsa Samta?
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:02:28 -0500 From: Ann Morrison Fisher
To: "Debora A. Orf" Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Janpa ("Debora A. Orf" ) wrote:
>i prefer to reserve a good word like f*** for those times when one really >needs it. Its too precious to just throw around like that no?
I'm with you!! :))))))))))))
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