1998/05/27 17:40
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #409
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 409
Today's Topics:
Re: Killing and reason [ Mystress Angelique Serpent <serpent ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ Mystress Angelique Serpent <serpent ]
Food [ "jb" <hc19436ATnospamautovia.com> ]
bliss [ "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.or ]
Re: Food [ "Orea de Sa' Hana" <oreaATnospamerols.com> ]
Re: Re: meat&sin&laughter [ AfperryATnospamaol.com ]
Re: Food [ Jeanne Garner <jeannegATnospamicon.net> ]
Re: meat&sin&laughter [ Paul West <paulATnospamstationone.demon.co ]
Re: Food [ Mystress Angelique Serpent <serpent ]
Food ethics and killing vegans etc. [ James Paterson <rockyATnospamww.co.nz> ]
meat and the human d tract [ James Paterson <rockyATnospamww.co.nz> ]
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:02:08 -0700
From: Mystress Angelique Serpent <serpentATnospamdomin8rex.com>
To: Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Killing and reason
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980527130208.0094b9e0ATnospamdomin8rex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:45 PM 27/05/98 +0200, Danijel Turina wrote:
>At 18:54 1998.05.26 -0700, Angelique wrote:
>> Judge as you will. Have fun at it, I know it to be a human thing to do.
>
>I prefer judgments to self-justification.
What's the difference? They are both coming from the ego.. you go to some
ridiculous extremes to justify your own position in this post. Humans bred
for organs?? Wot??
Who is it that lives in a world of fear?
>
> Or vice versa. Eating the salad is some sort
>of violence. Eating meat is some sort of violence too. There are people who
>say it is the same. I am not one of them.
Well, I say life eats life, and that's just the way it is.
Talk to a tree, it will tell you.
Do you not see the violence in your accusations? That's funny.
Your words seem angry.. but there was no anger in my killing, or any
hatred or any negative emotion. Nature may seem violent, but there is only
love.
>One example. Human body in the normal state of development needs food to
>exist. If there is no choice (Tibet or similar areas), it must be obtained
>from animal sources. If there is a choice of vegetable diet, and one still
>chooses to eat meat... I will spare you my judgments, you have obviously
>"outgrown" them a long time ago... killed your conscience so you could kill
>without remorse. Have fun in your world of fear.
Listen to you go on and on.. who are you talking to, Danijel? Who needs
to be convinced?
My body tells me it is carnivore.. one way it tells me this is thru
allergies.
Would you "have the choice" to be a vegan if you were allergic to wheat,
rice, beans, carrots, oranges, most nuts.. the list goes on.. have fun in
your righteous judgmental world.. keep on pretending it is a pose of
strength not fear... if you like it like that.
BTW oh Mr. Wise Guru who knows what is best for everyone, did you know
that extreme judgmentalism is a symptom of unbalanced K.??
Of course it, is also a symptom of evolution often seen in arrogant 21
year old males..;) Something to do with testosterone, I think.. Goddess
bless 'em.. :)))) They too are perfect.
>Very good. Soon people would be bred for spare organs. Very good. Just no
>judgments please, they might start the guilt and remorse, and those are
>"negative emotions"... better transmute them to white light so they won't
>disturb your sleep.
Oh, that is vrrry funny! Yes, Yes, I will do an "upstream Kriya"...
I think I'd better, coz I laughed so hard I almost wet myself.. :)))
That must be your secret plan..
>Serpents and scorpions and viruses have their purpouse in the world. But
>having one at home as a pet means accepting that frame of behavior/values.
>Killing without mercy.
Killing out of mercy for the snake. Duh.
Killing quickly out of mercy for the pig. Duh.
So you care not for the reptiles worldwide who die of sunburn?
(shrug) OK, well, I do..
If you get an infection, do you have mercy on the bacteria?
What if I had killed rats again this time instead of a guinea pig? Takes
several rats to equal the meat of one pig. The larger the meal, the less
often she eats.. the pig will hold her for a month.
Rats have killed more humans than snakes, via being carriers for the
black plague, amongst other diseases.. of course, plenty o rats have died
horrible deaths for the causes of science, too.. and humans have been saved
from rat-borne diseases by keeping pet snakes in the house since ancient
times.
Cats and witches and snakes.. I am allergic to cats.. witches were
accused of being in league with the devil coz they were more likely to
survive the plague.. coz they kept predators in the house to kill vermin.
Two years ago there was a warning out coz wild rodents including mice
were carrying a fatal bronchial disease.. my house was full of mice.. they
were bringing in fleas.. the landlord would do nothing.. I put flea power
down the air vents, to dust the mice.. Avalon of her own accord lived under
my dresser beside the air vent, snacking on the mice that came into my
bedroom.
Good snake :)
>
>> The human thing to do, indeed.. thump the serpent with a bulldozer. Sad,
>>eh??
>
>Is that non-judgment or self-justification? Tell me, oh lightworker, oh
>ground crew of the Goddess almighty?
ooooooh.. sarcasm. Nice. Only two choices?
Since you apparently could not tell, o sensitive self styled Master, it
was emotional expression. Weird from a grey alien like me, I know.. sorry
to surprise you.. but I do love my snake.
>I don't want to kill your snake, I don't want to have anything to do with
>it.
You want me to kill it with neglect. I'm not gonna. I love her, enough to
kill for her. That's how it is.
It is easy to love the cute furry things.. it is easy to pray in church..
it is harder to love the scorpions, and harder to attain bliss in the
cremation-ground.
It is easy to love you when you are showing your sweet face, it is harder
to love you when you are flaming righteous judgmental. But I do,
anyways...:* and I give you my attention.
And because being righteous seems to be something you enjoy, I will love
you by poking you even more.. :) being even more bait for judgment for
you.. here I AM.
("...the villagers used to say I was Lucifer incarnate..;) sympathy for
the devil??)
Poke poke poke.. even tho then you turn into a scorpion and get even
harder to love.. peek-a-boo.. I see Goddess in you..
> That's why I don't have to kill cute harmless creatures to feed it.
>That's my choice. How the snakes survive in the nature, I know, but I don't
>feel the need to help them.
Good for you. I don't feel much for the cause of Croatian Weasels,
either. ;B
I did spend many hours as a child attempting to wipe out the population
of English sparrows, too.. coz they are foreign to Canada, and are taking
over and driving out the native birds. One pair of sparrows can have 3
nests of five eggs every summer.. They also cause major destruction to
farmers, and it was on the family farm I was taught to find and destroy the
nests, and throw the baby birds hard against the steel burning barrel so
they were killed instantly and felt nothing but a moment's pre-mature
flight. Farm cats ate what was left.
Finding the nests was a fun game. Killing the baby sparrows was not a
game, but just something that had to be done, well and mercifully. Not the
sparrows' fault they were breeding in the wrong country.. humans did that.
Brought them here.
I was also taught how to snare and trap gophers to bonk 'em onna head..
and how to put up a flag and keep an eye on the trap or snare, when the
flag went down the trap was sprung, and first priority is the gopher
getting a speedy final exit from the trap, not be miserable breaking it's
teeth on the steel for very long. Shot plenty of them, too.. learned to be
a good shot so they would not suffer.
It is not something I do anymore.. I even let insects live, usually.. but
it is normal for a country upbringing.
What was also normal was periodically the adults having to shoot packs of
dogs that were killing sheep.. coz some city folks thought it was more
"humane" to turn their unwanted pets loose in the country, rather than have
them put down. These ex-housepets would form packs..
Cats, too.. numbers of unwanted housecats that had no idea how to survive
in the wild.. the farm cats would half-kill them anyways. The coyotes got a
fair number, I imagine.. there were lots of coyotes and foxes around, they
were left alone as valuable predators, unless they went after sheep.
Coyotes are smart.. few did.
Of course, we would find coyotes that had been shot by city folks for
target practice.. hawks, too.. twice, we rescued injured red tailed hawks
and brought them to the zoo rehab. One was released, the other became
display.
Your issues around death are not mine. I surrender to my Tao. I am a part
of nature.
I know death is too important a transition to ever be an accident, in a
universe without accidents. I have spent much time speaking to the dead
ones.. and telling them this comfort, so they may give up the regrets and
fear they are hanging on to, and go into the light.
Wings of the Psychopomp. Death is a part of life. All things are
impermanent. All things are eternal.
>
>> The snake is an ancient symbol of the planet, and of K. itself. It is
>
>Yeah, very sacred, sword is also a symbol of the planet, very cool if you
>hold it in your hand, very uncool if someone splits your head in two with
one.
>
Or chops it off..:)
I am the Serpent and the Sword..
>Yes, frozen evolution is perfect... Rocks also don't change much, it must
>be that they are the most perfect manifestations of Goddess there is.
All manifestations are equally perfect.. perfectly equal. and some eat
others. This is also perfect.
Someday something will happen to my head and the worms will eat me. So it
goes. I do not know when that time will come, the lines in my hands say it
is a long way off.. but I don't fear it. It is something I have done
before. It is my hope that when it comes, it is quick and painless.
> Will you choose the side of the killer or the victim?
>Will you be the guardian and the protector, or the predator? The choice
>exists. Two sides of the Force. They are both irrelevant, <..> But it is not
>the thing that would justify the atavistic longing for death and darkness.
>
Whose got an atavistic longing for death and what??? Who who who??
It is clear you are dealing with some issues here of your own, and I wish
you the best of luck with them. That you are projecting them onto me is
getting ... kind of predictable :) but it seems to be something you enjoy,
and it does not harm me, so have fun at it.
Blessings, Mystress.
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:08:57 -0700
From: Mystress Angelique Serpent <serpentATnospamdomin8rex.com>
To: "Lobster" <lobsterATnospamdial.pipex.com>
Cc: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>,
"Danijel Turina" <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>,
<kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980527130857.0094de20ATnospamdomin8rex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:54 PM 26/05/98 +0100, Lobster wrote:
>I remember seeing a Holy woman who had a practice of 'licking lepers' in
>order to 'heal' them. This is unhygeniec. Lepers and others should be wary
>of being licked by Gurus.
>
>Be Well, Be Happy
>Lobster
I heard of some Seekers who had a practice of licking toads to see God. I
dunno how the toads felt about it.. I'd rather lick ice cream and feel bliss.
Blessings, A. Serpent.
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:16:44 +0100
From: "jb" <hc19436ATnospamautovia.com>
To: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Food
Message-ID: <000001bd89ac$5e35b440$096335c3ATnospamjb>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BD89B4.BFFA1C40"
There is a good reason for the practice of ahimsa. As Life is one, killing
is a partial suicide. It will leave impressions in the subconscious mind.
These will add up and when raising K. or meditating, these impressions are
met as blocks or hindrances. Humans are very similar, as they belong to one
species. Their digestive tracts vary very slightly and only in capacity, not
in function. Both carnivores and omnivores secrete en enzyme (uricase) to
dispose of uric acid, a substance that is the byproduct of protein
digestion. Without this enzyme, carnivores and omnivores would get ill and
die very soon. Primates don't have this enzyme, so they are neither
carnivores nor omnivores. Our closest relatives in the primate world are the
bonobos: they prefer to feed on fruits and so should we. Our digestive tract
is too short for a herbivore, so leafy vegetables should be juiced. As it
can take up to a few months before the body is adapted to a diet of mainly
fruits and during this period one can feel awfully bad/weak, many come to
the wrong conclusion. If the body doesn't adapt it means there is an
existing health-problem that should taken care of first. The very fact that
humans are mammals means that the subjective experience of eating is
unconsciously associated with feelings of motherly love, care and security.
The like for food is our first and strongest tendency. It is the reason why
the majority is incapable of reflecting objectively on the matter. During
one's practice of meditation there will (hopefully) come a phase where the
tendencies start to die out. This goes according to the rule: What came
first, will go last. It means, that the tendency "moderation of diet" will
die out long before "like for food" dies out; this explains the fat Buddhas
and yogis. The above, unconscious association of eating is also the reason
why many emotional problems transform into eating disorders. As a rule,
everything in the abyss of the unconscious can be a serious hindrance, be it
for raising K. or for meditation.
Jan
--- A space vessel is approaching earth. Little alien asks his mother: "Why
don't we land on that beautiful blue planet?" The mother answers: The
inhabitants still are barbarians. They would eat us because we look like
their pigs" ---
Attachment Converted: "D:\EUDORA\ATTACH\winmail1.dat"
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:41:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01ATnospammail.win.org>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: bliss
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980527154019.23245H-100000ATnospamwinc0>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
is
lemonade
hot sun,
cool swimming pool...
&
pizza!(veggie)
--janpa watching summer take hold in the midwest
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:44:38 -0400
From: "Orea de Sa' Hana" <oreaATnospamerols.com>
To: jb <hc19436ATnospamautovia.com>, kl List <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Re: Food
Message-ID: <356C7B35.CE12CA51ATnospamerols.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
> Hi folks,
> Why do we have to eat each other to survive? Because for some reason *---*
> created it that way. I know I still don't get it. I think we will have to
> agree that the way the universe is set up is something we still don't
> understand, and I think for now we have to accept that. Maybe one day it
> will all make sense. Until then, we have to eat something. I know, cool
> whip isn't food, let's just eat that.
> --- A space vessel is approaching earth. Little alien asks his mother: "Why
> don't we land on that beautiful blue planet?" The mother answers: The
> inhabitants still are barbarians. They would eat us because we look like
> their bananas" ---
Love, Orea
jb wrote:
>
>
> --- A space vessel is approaching earth. Little alien asks his mother: "Why
> don't we land on that beautiful blue planet?" The mother answers: The
> inhabitants still are barbarians. They would eat us because we look like
> their pigs" ---
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:30:59 EDT
From: AfperryATnospamaol.com
To: lobsterATnospamdial.pipex.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-ID: <e65faf06.356c8615ATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 27/5/98 8:38:23 pm, you wrote:
<<I remember seeing a Holy woman who had a practice of 'licking lepers' in
order to 'heal' them.>>
Was that by any chance Ammachi (Mata Amritanandamayi)? She is known to have
sucked the pus from leprous sores in order to heal them.
And she's a vegetarian too........................;-)
God bless,
Alan
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:30:11
From: Jeanne Garner <jeannegATnospamicon.net>
To: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Food
Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980527173011.3e0f4914ATnospamicon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:16 PM 5/27/98 +0100, jb wrote:
>Humans are very similar, as they belong to one
>species. Their digestive tracts vary very slightly and only in capacity, not
>in function.
Horsefeathers. Sounds like vegetarian evangelistic propaganda to me. Tell
that to a diabetic, who must carefully regulate sugars and other
carbohydrates. Their digestive systems obviously does something very
different with these substances than a non-diabetic's system would. Some
people handle fruits, grains and legumes well; others do not. As I said
before, one size never fits all. Some people can take a handful of
aspirin; if I take even two, my ears ring and I feel like I'm going to
vomit. Some people's systems won't handle strawberries, some won't take
tomatoes and lots can't handle milk or dairy products at all. Still
luckier folks can eat anything without worry. No two people are exactly
alike. For that matter, no two animals are exactly alike, either. I had
one cat that was allergic to milk--it would make him very sick. My others,
over the years, had no problems with milk. Some have been allergic to
certain medications, while others weren't. Same species, different
digestions, different needs.
Jeanne
==-* My stars!
Date: 27 May 98 22:43:57 +0000
From: Paul West <paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: meat&sin&laughter
Message-Id: <356C972D.MD-0.196.paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk>
> I agree with that. The intent is what creates karma. The motivation behind
> the act.
Making meat-eating or the morality of killing an issue in the first
place is the only thing that makes karma.
--
Paul.
IRC: #amiga, Dalnet: #blitz
WWW: http://www.stationone.demon.co.uk
E-M: paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:56:02 -0700
From: Mystress Angelique Serpent <serpentATnospamdomin8rex.com>
To: "jb" <hc19436ATnospamautovia.com>
Cc: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Food
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980527165602.008fa100ATnospamdomin8rex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:16 PM 27/05/98 +0100, jb wrote:
>There is a good reason for the practice of ahimsa. As Life is one, killing
>is a partial suicide. It will leave impressions in the subconscious mind.
>These will add up and when raising K. or meditating, these impressions are
>met as blocks or hindrances.
Are we talking about the same subconscious?
The subconscious that marshals white blood cells to kill bacteria, the
same subconscious that allows cancer when the Higher self says it is time
to die? the same unconscious that holds the "lizard brain", where we and
the Serpents are One?
The same subconscious which is connected to the Jungian cosmic
consciousness, which knows All of the play of life an death?
All death is suicide on a higher self level. Life and death are One on
the Wheel.
The blocks come from the resistance to this.. the judgments and fears of
the ego.
Human.are very similar, as they belong to one
>species. Their digestive tracts vary very slightly and only in capacity, not
>in function.
Goddess is limitless manifestation, and humans can differ quite a bit in
their dietary needs. The simplest example of this is lactose intolerance.
Asians often cannot tolerate milk products, whereas light skinned northern
races learned to use lactose as vitamin D. during the sunless months, and
adapted their digestion to tolerate it.
I do see this attitude of "Vegan is holier than thou" as a form of
spiritual racism tho.
If the Tibetans got overrun by China coz they were so evolved, then what
about the native Americans??
> Primates don't have this enzyme, so they are neither
>carnivores nor omnivores. Our closest relatives in the primate world are the
>bonobos: they prefer to feed on fruits and so should we.
Dunno about the enzyme.. but I do know a study was done on rain forest
primates, to know more of their eating habits.. it was thought that such
primates are picky eaters of fruits, because so much of what they eat is
tossed away after one bite.
Turns out that they were not after the perfect fruit, they were finding
the fruit with bugs in it, biting out and eating the part with the bug and
tossing the rest. Picky eaters of insects and grubs. Life eats life. They
help the trees by eating the bugs.
Smart monkey uses a stick to eat the termites.. just like us..
> During
>one's practice of meditation there will (hopefully) come a phase where the
>tendencies start to die out. This goes according to the rule: What came
>first, will go last. It means, that the tendency "moderation of diet" will
>die out long before "like for food" dies out; this explains the fat Buddhas
>and yogis.
Mmmmm.. it also explains the stories of yogis who become incapable of
feeding themselves, and must be fed by their disciples or they will die. My
body does not prompt me to eat very often as it is.. but I am glad it does
sometimes, and gives me cravings for exactly what it needs. Or I'd forget
to eat and become reaaaly skinny..
>--- A space vessel <...> The mother answers: The
>inhabitants still are barbarians. They would eat us because we look like
>their pigs" ---
Wasn't this a Muppets episode? "Pigs in space"..
There is also the one about the robot aliens who disdained us coz we are
made of meat.. and I remember a science fiction story about aliens decided
to wipe us out so they would not catch a deadly disease.. Chess.
Is is really all about fear of rejection?? Weaning off the breast? That
is non Vegan too, I guess.
Cannibals call humans "long pig".. Christians eat the body of Christ,
Kali chews on Buddha guts.
So it goes.. Blessings, Mystress.
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 12:02:32
From: James Paterson <rockyATnospamww.co.nz>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Food ethics and killing vegans etc.
Message-Id: <3.0.2.16.19980528120232.08a78f3cATnospamww.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In some places if there were no snakes and things to keep the rodent
population
in balance there would be enormous swings in population (as occurs in
Australia
sometimes even though they have snakes).
The population increases geometrically to the point where everything is
consumed.
Which can be crops that people rely on to live. Then most of the rodents
starve
to death and the other stuff recovers quicker than the rodents etc. and the
cycle
repeats. If killing is wrong do we let the rodents eat us out of house and
home
without trying to limit their population in some way - ie kill some of them
- even
if it is by introducing a natural predator to keep them in balance. Here in
New Zealand we have introduced animals which are causing terrible problems.
Are we not supposed to kill the possums but let them destroy the beautiful
native bush and thus the native bird population. Not to mention that they
carry TB and sometimes transfer it to cows which endangers our health and
exports. As to the rabbits - they do unbelievable damage to the high country.
The trouble is introduced natural predators like stoats and weasels go for
native birds and the like. The are no easy answers to this killing business
and as far as I am concerned if mystress wants to feed the odd rat or guinea
pig to her beloved snake more power to her. It may not be something I would
be happy to do but I will not condemn her for it.
Take the apparently healthy idea of drinking fruit juice. This is not the
natural way fruit comes. The latest research shows that human protein
exposed to fructose is
altered in the same way that occurs naturally with age. So imbibing an
amount that
is not immediately digested may not be good for you. As against eating
fruit where
it my enter your system more slowly.
I am currently on holiday from my job and from my part-time studies, so can
follow
this list and contribute. Even so it takes keeping up with. I think my
normal
thing will be lurking and occasionally mass deleting. I am really enjoying
the list though.
rocky
*******
B A C K W O R D
"Well, what do you think, Pooh?" I said.
"Think about what?" asked Pooh.
"The Tao of Pooh, of course."
"The *how* of Pooh?" asked Pooh.
"Do we have to go through *that* again?" I said.
"Go through *what" again?" asked Pooh.
"The Tao of Pooh?" I said.
"What's the Tao of Pooh?"
"You know--the Uncarved Block, the Cottles-
ton Pie Principle, the Pooh Way, *That* Sort of Bear,
and all that."
"Oh," said Pooh.
"That's the Tao of Pooh," I said.
"Oh," said Pooh.
"How would *you* describe it?" I asked.
"Well ... this just came to me," he said. "I'll
sing it to you."
"All right."
"Now, then...(er*hum*),"
''To know the Way,
We *go* the Way;
We *do* the Way
The way we do
The things we do.
It's all there in front of you,
But if you try too hard to see it,
You'll only become Confused.
I am me,
And you are you,
As you can see;
But when you do
The things that *you* can do,
You will find the Way,
And the Way will follow you.''
"That's what *I* think it is," he said.
"*Perfect*," I said. "But you know, don't you . . ."
"Know what?" said Pooh.
"It's the same thing."
"Oh," said Pooh. "So it is."
>From the Tao of Pooh
by Benjamin Hoff
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 12:08:22
From: James Paterson <rockyATnospamww.co.nz>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: meat and the human d tract
Message-Id: <3.0.2.16.19980528120822.2a477f76ATnospamww.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The length of the human digestive tract varies. In places where people have
traditionally eaten lots of meat it is much shorter. In places where
people eat
lots of vegies it is quite a bit longer.
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