1998/05/15 01:26
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #371
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 371
Today's Topics:
Re: Question [ "Larry Schmitz" <taniaATnospamcentroin.com ]
RE: Questions [ "Jan Barendrecht" <janbarenATnospamcorreo. ]
Re: Milarepa and pranayama? [ "Antoine" <acarreATnospamconcentric.net> ]
RE: Milarepa and pranayama? [ Kurt Keutzer <keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley ]
Your web site... [ webmasterATnospamsearchengine-help.com ]
Re: Milarepa and pranayama? [ Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com> ]
end [ Sunil R Peswani <peswaniATnospamgiaspn01.v ]
re: end [ AnNiteLite <AnNiteLiteATnospamaol.com> ]
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:40:47 -0300
From: "Larry Schmitz" <taniaATnospamcentroin.com.br>
To: "kristin" <kristinATnospamaol.com>, <Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Re: Question
Message-ID: <01bd7f9a$1a440b40$3738e1c8ATnospamlarry>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
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Kristin,
It's good to hear from you. I'm sure someone will explain the
technicalities....but,
how are you? Your first message is sending only good vibes to me!!! Did
you
have success with Mystress' grounding meditation?
Larry
-----Original Message-----
From: kristin <kristinATnospamaol.com>
To: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com <Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 9:16 PM
Subject: Question
>Hi, I use to be at WHYASKATnospamaol.com, but then I changed my e-mail address to
>kristinATnospamaol.com. I still would love to be on the list, but I can't remember
>how to get back on with my new e-mail address, and take WHYASK off the
list.
>Thank you,
>Kristin
>
>
Attachment Converted: "D:\EUDORA\ATTACH\Lawrence P. Schmitz13.vcf"
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:08:01 +0100
From: "Jan Barendrecht" <janbarenATnospamcorreo.infase.es>
To: "Melody" <melodyATnospampowernet.net>
Cc: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: RE: Questions
Message-ID: <000201bd7f9d$e8149d20$55f14dc3ATnospamjb>
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Melody asked:
> Is it physical yoga positions only that raise kundalini, or can you
> raise it by meditating?
<snipped>
Only conserving energy will awaken K. and to raise it, energy has to be
transformed. The power for all we think/do can be called "emotive energy".
With sufficient introspection it is possible to see, that the major part of
this energy is devoted to selfish purposes that often are no more than
damaging habits (for oneself and others), being repeated over and over.
There are physical laws of conservation/transformation (energy, impulse,
momentum etc.) and there are psychical equivalents as well. All systems of
meditation first ensure the right starting conditions (mentally, physically)
to conserve emotive energy, like detachment, desirelessness,
dispassionateness. These properties are a must, both for conserving and
transforming and they could be called negative motivations (by discouraging
one's former dissipative attitude). Positive motivations like the ideal to
enlighten all sentient beings or unwavering love for God can have the same
effect (by evaporating one's former dissipative attitude). People,
undergoing a severe change in life-conditions, often will conserve energy
because of an emotion that will (temporarily) suspend the activity of all
other emotions, or because they are absorbed in reflection for a long time,
as this behavior prevents dissipating emotive energy as usual. If one isn't
ripe for this, it can cause a lot of harm. The reason is, that conserving
alone isn't enough. The energy has to be transformed (converted into
spiritual energy) but if it is suppressed, the harm will occur.
Jan
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:16:54 -0400
From: "Antoine" <acarreATnospamconcentric.net>
To: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Milarepa and pranayama?
Message-ID: <01bd7fa7$87bfc580$47f4adceATnospamconcentric>
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:Hi Hillary! :)
:
:>Hi Danijel,
:>
:>Ohhh boy. Think of all the middle-aged men and women doing keagal
:>(sp?)exercises and not knowing what's going to hit them !! :))))))
:
::))) Well, if they're not doing the intense stuff they're safe. :))
:The danger part is messing with your natural breathing system. If you're
:listening to the body rythm (that means, when your lungs struggle for air,
:breathe, don't count) you're safe. But when folks talk about kumbhaka
:pranayama in terms like who can hold breath longer, well, you can hold
:breath all the time when you're dead. :)
Makes me think of a personal experience with a meditation technique, based
on the "philocalie (in french)". Where the only thing you do is focus on
your heart beat, day and night. It's a very fast method and safe if you have
a couple of years in retreat not seing anyone stressed. Each heart beat
comes to come to sing to god. But as all of you know, our environnement is
more stressed than when this technique was created. Crossing the streat can
become a cause of an heart attack using this technique, not counting all the
day to day problems whe learned to create over the centuries. If the person
did not acquire a deep inner peace that won't change is heart beat, over
wich ones to come to have control over, the problems coming out from this
technique can come out of proportion very fast. The first thing someone
experimented in meditation told me when i met him was to stop this technique
until "all" of me in my actual environnement was ready for it.
Sigh... It is so bliss full to sink deep in the heart to only listen to
it's heart beat. Guess i have to learn instead to listen in the same way, at
least with all my body, if not all my environnement.
Antoine
Reference on the Philocalie:
"Recits d'un pélerin Russe" ISBN 1-02-000527
"Petite Philocalie de la prière du coeur" ISBN 2-02-005348-9
Don't know if it as been translated in english yet.
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:26:47 -0700
From: Kurt Keutzer <keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu>
To: "'Danijel Turina'" <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Cc: "'keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu'" <keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu>,
"'Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com'" <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com>
Subject: RE: Milarepa and pranayama?
Message-ID: <FD905415E0ECD011922300A0C9558C4B23014CATnospamravine.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Danijel says:
<snip>
>From what I know about tummo, it is often
described as drawing energy from semen/bindu into the body through
subtle
channels. How is it done, I don't know, I didn't do it myself and have
never talked to someone who did it either. What is the use of it, I
don't
know, except producing body heat. There are a lots of things I don't
know
about it, and I would really love to hear some real facts about the
thing,
not just this lama said this, that lama said that, bla bla is written in
some book, I don't give a shit about that, I can always go to the
library,
but I would really love to hear some facts about it from someone who
practiced/practices it and knows what it does and what is it all about.
What I did get is just guessing from people who read a lots of books and
talked to the people who did it, and think that it makes them an
authority
in the matter.
KK:
I'm not sure why this discussion has become so polarized with a negative
tone. This need not be a particularly challenging or emotional
discussion. The topic is pretty well understood.
I feel that my own experience is insignificant compared to the vast
accumulated experience of so many masters of the past. So if a great
teacher like Milarepa has written clearly on a topic, like the value of
tummo meditation, then I think it is better to just read what he said.
Of course an added impetus to point you to his writings is that we were
specifically talking about what Milarepa thought. I generally like to
point to the classic writings of the great masters of the past first,
then to the teachings of contemporary teachers that I have met second.
It is rare that I will find myself having anything to add after that
based on my own experience.
Danijel:
I would love to hear something like this: "Milarepa
practiced this, this and this, it works like this, and I know because I
did
it for that amount of time and I am now in the state of no desires".
Otherwise, your guessing/knowledge is just as bad as mine in that
matter.
What is my exact motivation in the entire discussion? I have noticed
that
you advertise pranayama here, saying it is a good technique to practice.
I
question that.
KK:
I have received teachings on tummo from a number of unbroken lineages
that descend directly from Naropa to his disciple Phamthingpa as well as
from Naropa to his disciple Marpa and then to Marpa's disciple
Milarepa. I have also received them from teachers whose lineage is based
on the Nyingma ``discovered treasure'' teachings of dud 'dul dorje. I
have practiced these intermittently over a period of 20 years. The tummo
practice focuses particularly on the winds entering the central channel
at the navel cakra. I find the positive of this approach versus others
is that the tummo teachings are very grounding. Focusing the energy at
the navel cakra area works to concentrate it from other parts of the
body - especially from the heart and head. On the other hand I don't
personally find the navel cakra the easiest place for the winds to enter
the central channel. So in that regard I find tummo more difficult than
some other yogic practices. Tummo is a rapid method for purifying
desires - but still it takes time. I would not recommend practicing
tummo without proper instruction.
Danijel says:
What is my exact motivation in the entire discussion? I have noticed
that you advertise pranayama here, saying it is a good technique to
practice. I question that. I have my own experience that says it could
also be very dangerous, even life threatening. It would be irresponsible
of me not to say it, because it is the other side of the coin - you may
get enlightened, you may also get hurt. My experience was a mixture of
both.
KK:
It takes very flexible nadi/channels and a concentrated mind to achieve
much success in practices like tummo. If the nadis are impure then there
is a lot of rapid purification. If the mind cannot stay concentrated
then the energy gets diverted and stuck in odd places and can cause many
mental and physical problems. One symptom of these is extreme
excitability. The energies get stuck in the head and upper parts of the
body and one may become quite petulant.
There are a number of practices that can improve the results of tummo.
Earlier
I experienced a variety of minor problems in my tummo practice.
Approaching one dear lama who had instructed me in tummo I explained my
problem and expected him to give me a detailed tune-up in my practice.
Instead he said: ``Were all the Buddhas and bodhisattvas of all ages
past to assemble here they could offer you no better advice than to
improve your aspiration to gain enlightenment for the sake of all
sentient beings.''
Last year another teacher of mine gave tummo instruction to a number of
people who had never practiced it before. At the end of the instruction
I asked him what people should do if they encountered any problems. He
said that if one focused on the guru then no obstacles would arise. I
haven't heard of any from that group.
So I think that with a concentrated mind, flexible nadis and with the
blessings of great masters then tummo is an effective practice. I don't
know anything about Danijel's technique so I don't know how to compare
it to that.
May all find comfort and joy
KUrt
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:37:40
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Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:26:21 EDT
From: Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com>
To: keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu, sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr,
kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Milarepa and pranayama?
Message-ID: <848d2953.355bb5dfATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 5/14/1998 7:29:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu writes:
<< So I think that with a concentrated mind, flexible nadis and with the
blessings of great masters then tummo is an effective practice. I don't
know anything about Danijel's technique so I don't know how to compare
it to that.
May all find comfort and joy
KUrt
>>
Summary of Danijel's Technique: That's it. Try
to do it at will, using yoni mudra, that is the contraction of the
perineum/anus (perineum/anus/vagina for women) area, it draws the energy
into susumna nadi, going straight up and leaving your body through
sahasra-ara. When you do this, at first you could have parts of your body
jerking;
left-right head movement means you are doing it right; energy is performing
a spiral movement around the spine and exiting through the crown chakra. I
called this technique "up-stream kriya", a sort of an English/Sanskrit
mish-mash. :)
Harsha's comment: Danijel, "your" technique imitates in a very mild way the
last stage of Bandha Traya. However, in Bandha Traya, Mulabandha,
Jalandrabandha, and Uddiyana Bandha are applied simultaneously with the breath
having been expired. This leads to the shaking of the body. Pranayama
practitioners become automatically sensitive to that movement. There are many
many variations on this. By the way, there are some people who claim that
standing on one's head for three hours a day leads to moksha as well. I would
still suggest you follow up on Kurt's references. Be happy. Do not overshake
your self:--)
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:01:35 +0500 (GMT+0500)
From: Sunil R Peswani <peswaniATnospamgiaspn01.vsnl.net.in>
To: kundalini-l <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: end
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980515110010.8858A-100000ATnospamgiaspn01.vsnl.net.in>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Shahanshah has disappeared.
At some stage Wisdom entered Shahanshah's body in the form of higher
viberational (h.v.)energy. This h.v. energy was filling the vaccuam
caused by awareness meditation thro the effort of Shahanshah's ego or
lower viberational energy (l.v). And then Wisdom took over being more
powerful and lasting.
This Wisdom said.... Shahanshah's body is a machine perfected by Wisdom
thro various births to convert l.v (ego) energy into h.v. energy. This
machine collects l.v. energy alround , thro the earth and neighbours,
friends and relatives in the form of anger, hatred, fear, love etc. This
h.v. energy is energy of Unity of life alround.
This Wisdom sees this process going alround in many forms in various lives
and is perfectly satisfied.
Shahanshah dances along with l.v. energy collected everyday with its moods
and also enjoys the Wisdom and pain caused due to this conversion.
Neighbours see an ordinary man living ordinary life in the body of Shahanshah.
Shahanshah sees an ordinary man living ordinary life in the body of
Shahanshah but knows the difference.
There is no power here in Shahanshah nor any light body.
Is this self-realistion? or Enlightment or Moksh or Nirvan or ..NOTHING.
Shahanshah has no interest in any answer to above question.
Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 03:09:47 EDT
From: AnNiteLite <AnNiteLiteATnospamaol.com>
To: kundalini-l <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>,
Mystress Angelique Serpent <mistressATnospamdomin8rex.com>
Cc: Sunil R Peswani <peswaniATnospamgiaspn01.vsnl.net.in>
Subject: re: end
Message-ID: <4344b3d8.355bea3cATnospamaol.com>
Sunil R Peswani <peswaniATnospamgiaspn01.vsnl.net.in> wrote:
>Shahanshah has disappeared.
>
>At some stage Wisdom entered Shahanshah's body in the form of higher
>viberational (h.v.)energy. This h.v. energy was filling the vaccuam
>caused by awareness meditation thro the effort of Shahanshah's ego or
>lower viberational energy (l.v). And then Wisdom took over being more
>powerful and lasting.
>
Dear Peswani!
This seems to be a major movement forward - or should I say upward? I am full
of joy for you!
Love,
Ann
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