1998/04/24 21:18
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #330
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 330
Today's Topics:
Sanskrit terms [ "Joseph Miller" <joemillerATnospamhotmail. ]
Re: Revelling [ Angela Mary Broad <ambroadATnospamacs.ucal ]
Control will happen [ Briony123 <Briony123ATnospamaol.com> ]
to be [ Paul West <paulATnospamstationone.demon.co ]
Re: Insomnia and Time [ Angela Mary Broad <ambroadATnospamacs.ucal ]
Re: to be [ Angela Mary Broad <ambroadATnospamacs.ucal ]
Nadis and their location [ "Joseph Miller" <joemillerATnospamhotmail. ]
Re: Jerry and Glo sittin' in a tree. [ valerie cooper <madammumATnospamptialaska. ]
Re: Directions... (Ed) [ Rik <rik_wATnospamrocketmail.com> ]
Unidentified subject! [ Delirium <deliriumATnospamfull-moon.com> ]
Re: curious [ MMeyers541 <MMeyers541ATnospamaol.com> ]
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:35:45 PDT
From: "Joseph Miller" <joemillerATnospamhotmail.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Sanskrit terms
Message-ID: <19980425013546.19968.qmailATnospamhotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
I'm back!!
Sorry to leave these loose ends hanging but it's been a busy week and
work left me drained so I wasn't able to complete my obligations to
answer a few questions left hanging before I quit reading personal
e-mail (like the list) and doing the things I do in my spare time.
Below is an answer I sent to someone off the list (I think) but I later
saw the question in a post to the list so I am sending it to the list
now. (If I've screwed up and sent it to the list twice, please forgive
the error.)
>Could you put these various systems in plain English for those of
us---like
>me---who do not have a grasp of Hindu terminology?
Since the nadis (think pathways if you like) have no western names I'm
afraid I can't. The reason I use Sanskrit terms is they are the only
ones I am aware of for such systems worked out in great detail. We use
prana (Sanskrit) or chi/ki (Chinese/Japanese) for one type of energy and
Kundalini (Sanskrit) for another, because we simply have no names for
these energies in English. Heck, as a culture we don't even believe they
exist, why should we name them.
>And could you, further,
>give us a breakdown of the manifestations of each of the various
pathways,
>with a list of what happens with each, so that we might be able to
determine
>which, if any, our own k is following?
>
I (along with others on the K-list) have discussed the symptoms of a
Vajra rising. I don't know how scientific it is but of the people I've
talked with (who've worked with a K Master to fully understand their
process) most (>50%) had Vajra risings. It seems to be the most common
in the west, our life style would make it most likely and the culture
reflects the fruits of a Vajra rising. Others had risings in other
nadis, other than Susumna or its contained nadis, but it was very few.
Actual spontaneous Susumna risings were only true in about 25% of the
people I've met with risings.
As to what to look for to categorize, since I am not a K Master I'd just
be making educated guesses.
It would be different for men and women. Women have a much easier time
getting to Heart Chakra through Susumna. If a woman started experiencing
K after the birth of a child and/or raising a child, after being
seriously involved in helping others, etc. and had strong feelings of
love and compasion... I'd guess a Susumna rising to heart and perhaps
higher if it had been active awhile.
For men and women who didn't fit the above profile, I'd ask first if the
person had significant psychic powers of any sort. If the answer was no,
I'd assume it was Susumna and hadn't gotten to the throat. K, usually,
has to get to throat to get strong psychic powers through Susumna and
even in people who have risings, getting to throat in Susumna, without a
teacher and living a western lifestyle is rare, though I do know people
who have done it.
If they had significant psychic powers I'd ask if they were ever
actively gay or bisexual. If no I'd bet my lunch money on Vajra. Vajra
is considered the "Sexual Nadi" but it is really the "Heterosexual
Nadi". There is a different nadi that, when open causes one to tend
toward and in turn is enhanced by homosexual acts (made an easier
pathway for Kundalini). It follows a slightly different path than Vajra
and goes to some different (and some same) brain centers. It too can
lead to psychic powers. It is harder (I am told) to redirect K from this
nadi back to Susumna than it is from Vajra, not that the trip from Vajra
is a cake-walk.
The real question is: Was it Susumna or not? If the answer is "No" then
the student has a harder time and can't become enlightened unless the K
is shifted to Susumna (or one of its contained nadis and to Brahma after
the brow chakra). There can be real complications if K takes Susumna but
it is much easier than if it is in an other nadi.
Understand in this post when I use Susumna I've usually been meaning
Susumna or its contained nadis. Each nadi will tend to give the symptoms
a different flavor. Some easy, some hard, on the person with the rising.
There is one contained nadi that can lead to very interesting symptoms,
it isn't usually dangerous, except perhaps to one's career or social
life, due to the overwhelming emotions it can cause to surface.
I hope this helps.
Namaste,
Joe
______________________
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:46:29 -0600 (MDT)
From: Angela Mary Broad <ambroadATnospamacs.ucalgary.ca>
To: Paul West <paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk>
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Revelling
Message-Id: <Pine.A41.3.96.980424193644.20216C-100000ATnospamacs1.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Tell us then, do you know this: HOW CAN WE OPEN UP, ONCE AGAIN BE ONE???
In earlier years, espcicially my earlier adolescence, I was overcome by
shyness. I would sense the energy fields of every other messed up growing
learning jr. high person in my general vicinity. It made me terribly
uncomfotratlbe, especially if I liked someone, for I thought for sure they
could feel my energy reaching out to theirs, at the same time I could feel
their nervousness/popularity thing and I thought it was in reaction to
energy they could -conscioulsy- sense radiating from me. I thought if I
read a lot to take my mind of this awareness they couldn't sense me
either, but when reading or intently doing my in-class work, I still was
aware...eventually I realized they coulnd't sense my energy the way I
could theirs. Eventually I learnd people were closed and so my inner
thoughts and feelings were safe. They may see signs of visual nervousness
but not know why, thank goodness. I grew, and now, still growing I
realized I've about 97% less fear about other people and energy,
especially once I left Jr. High. High school, I was aware but still it
wasn't as unsettling, and now except for once in a while it's so much
better. I'm more
open then I've ever been before, but now I cannot find others who are open
and this is where I can identify entirely with what you're saying!!!!!
Where are they all? Why the mental walls, the boxes, for goodness sake
telepathy for fun and conectionwithall happens all the time, with everyone
if we'd just let it!!! EVERYONE LISTEN UP!!!!! How can we open up?
LOVE AND LIGHT WARMS AND SHINES!!!!!
Angie
-The sky is not the limit ;)
On 23 Apr 1998, Paul West wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> I think I have just had/am having a revelation. It's not me, it's not
> my fault, I am not the one that is wrong. I am not the one who doesn't
> understand or is not wise. People are asleep. They are shutting me
> out, shutting out oneness, and that is all that is offending me. A
> /reality/ of being one, makes the mind look so confused. Thinking is
> so narrow-minded, controlled, restrained, ambitious, goal-oriented. I
> can't handle people being seperate people in seperate bodies. It's not
> right. I am aware, paintfully aware, mentally intimate, of people's
> sleepyness. It's almost too much to bear and that makes me sad,
> thinking I am wrong. But I am not wrong. I can change reality. I am in
> control. I have the choice. The world is going to wake up to something
> I have always known about. It must. It simply must. It will. I have to
> start asserting myself, making a change, altering the world. Because I
> can and I will because I am not wrong.
>
> !!!!!
>
> --
> Paul.
>
>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:31:34 EDT
From: Briony123 <Briony123ATnospamaol.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Control will happen
Message-ID: <7dc72132.35413cf7ATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 98-04-24 16:50:21 EDT, Paul wrote:
<< But, strange thing is,
this end is not the end of the story. >>
Paul---
You said it!!!
>From where I am sitting, having been dealing with this Kundalini stuff since
1988, is that I believe it can get better.....for me an increased ability to
control the surges has happened as I learned to separate out delusions.....and
recognize their root causes inside myself.....
Also, for me, it seems as if the surges were out cleaning out my
mind.....forcing all the ugly up into my consciousness....forcing me to
work/evolve through it in order to stay alive.....
So now, ten years later......I still have times when energy is racing in my
body, and my crown is wide open---my head feels like a light bulb.....but I'm
able to work with it now, hold a job.....not scare people....use the altered
perceptions to help....
For example, not to long ago I helped prevent an accidental death while
experiencing one of these energy surges......
Please don't give in to despair Paul....I think the "living hell" part of your
experience will wind down and you will certainly obtain mastery over your
awakening self.....
Keep the Faith,
--trystan
Date: 25 Apr 98 02:41:58 +0000
From: Paul West <paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: to be
Message-Id: <35414C24.MD-0.196.paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk>
Hello.
I think that in life there are many things which are better than me.
There are people who look better, people who are stronger, faster,
more intelligent, more sociable, more popular, more outgoing, more
desirable, more desiring, more ambitious, more happy, more sad. But
these things are all a distance from the present, from reality, in
which I just am. And that is enough.
I think one can take something sacred and try to analyse it and
interpret it and one comes up with a whole load of shit. Confusion and
control and deception and exclusion and lots of shit. And one wonders
why one can't find a nice, good answers in all of it, a complete
answer, a whole answer. There never seems to be satisfaction, never
seems to be complete happyness. And one associates oneself with these
images of perfection, these denials, and one does not feel happy. One
becomes sad. But one is not these images of perfection. One is
perfection. Prior to the image, prior to the analysis, prior to the
interpretation. One just is. I just am perfect. And that is enough.
And worst of all, should perchance a perfect person be virtuous, with
many joyous traits of honesty and patience and kindness and
compassion, if one should take from these things an image from which
to analyse and find a value of ones worth things can go quickly
downhill. From the most delicate of perfections can come the most
hideous monstrosities of corrupt interpretation. The better things
were to start with the worse they turn out when you try to make
`sense' of it. And one then wonders why one is so unspiritual and so
fragmented and so unaware, and this brings sadness as an absence of
love. But one is not this, not a findable answer. One is not
imperfection or interpretation or analysis. Such things only are
themselves. One just is. Perfect. And that is enough.
It seems also that one can get into a frame of mind where one wants to
find an answer, a result, an end, which they will be happy with,
peaceful with. But such things are not peace, they are half-measures.
One tries to find the opposite of the supposedly evil or negative
images, to find the good interpretations, the christ-like
interpretations, to be seen to be good, to be `truthful' and to not be
`falseful'. To be this but not that. But that is not where you find
acceptance and strength. Just to be. Just to exist. And that is
enough.
This is. We are. I am. You are. Love.
--
Paul.
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:01:52 -0600 (MDT)
From: Angela Mary Broad <ambroadATnospamacs.ucalgary.ca>
To: Briony123 <Briony123ATnospamaol.com>
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Insomnia and Time
Message-Id: <Pine.A41.3.96.980424195423.20216D-100000ATnospamacs1.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hello!!!
A lot this year I would lie awake thiking of sleep and how I couldn't. :)
After an exausting day of classes, studying and going to the gym in hopes
that I would be able to fall asleep, I would get into bed and realise I
was full of energy. This isn't quite as strange as what once happened,
one night I woke up at 2:00 am and then again at 12:00 pm !!!???!!!!??
usually I'm awake at 3:00, or 4:15...now that school's over I've been
sleeping a lot, and fairly normally for now...but this last week while
studying I would suddenly skip a whole hour for no apperent reason, this
happens at night too.... I have similar experiances, but sorry, no good
theories yet... I just think time is relative, like that diamond, and
just as bright or dark depending on the angle you look at it, it is
elastic and (of course) there is never enough of it. I think part of
enlightenment should be rising above it entirely....
DOES ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THE BIG-SMALL THING????
look at a corner in the room, a cieling corner uncluttered with odly
angled walls etc, just stare at it and eventually it feels unreal, or
perhpas super-real...when you close your eyes and feel/know/sense/see
something so vast and yet so tiny, the most complete of the pardoxes, like
fractals taken to the most simple level possible and then another few
dimensions added, does anyone see this while, actually while doing
anything for that matter? Anyone at all?
:)
Angie
On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Briony123 wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I'm so glad James brought up "extreme energy and insomnia" that's been a HUGE
> characteristic for me.....
>
> I'm very curious about others who have experienced insomnia tied in with a
> different perception of time.......
>
> any takers out there???
>
> ---trystan
>
>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:04:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: Angela Mary Broad <ambroadATnospamacs.ucalgary.ca>
To: Paul West <paulATnospamstationone.demon.co.uk>
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: to be
Message-Id: <Pine.A41.3.96.980424200414.20216E-100000ATnospamacs1.acs.ucalgary.ca>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hello!
Way to go!!!
now we just have to live it....
Angie
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:31:09 PDT
From: "Joseph Miller" <joemillerATnospamhotmail.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Nadis and their location
Message-ID: <19980425033110.221.qmailATnospamhotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
OK now round two of unfinished business. This is long, sorry!
Before I got lost in the day-to-day world several (at least >1) had ask
for my sources. Well I knew I had handouts and notes I'd made during
lectures and I was right. I was also sure I'd seen the same thing in
regular books (you know the type, ISBN numbers, publishers, etc.) and I
was partly right.
After looking around my very disorganized library I took the easy way
out. My teacher/Kundalini Master is visiting the U.S. from India for a
few months and is staying ~2 miles from my house. I needed to talk to
him about another matter so I took advantage to add these questions to
mine when we met yesterday.
The best source for the information on Susumna and its contained nadis
is in Satchakranirupana (pronounced more or less:
Sot-chakra-near-u-pana). The best/only translation he knows about
(though he warns not always completely accurate) available in English is
"Serpent Power" by Sir John Woodroffe (also known as Arthur Avalon). My
copy was published by Ganesh & Co., it doesn't have an ISBN, which can
be explained by the fact I picked it up in Delhi and it wasn't intended
for export. It can be found in the U.S., I've seen it, but not at Barnes
& Noble, at least not everyday. This is the book with the great drawings
of the chakras.
The problem with Woodroffe's work, again according to my walking talking
expert, is he is a fairly good Sanskrit scholar but at best a "fair"
student of Yoga and Kundalini (and I got the impression my teacher found
him less than "fair" on many occasions). I was taught out of this
translation while in India. Not from this part of the book, it was over
farther in the chakra part, to help me understand what was happening to
me at the chakra where the K was stuck at the time. We used ~5 of his
verses pretty much as he translated but junked one entirely (Woodroffe
apparently wasn't too sure, he gave two different translations of that
verse, my teacher didn't care for either).
Woodroffe does place Vajra inside Susumna (for at least part of the
distance) but I have been assured that is wrong. Since the original
text, in Sanskrit, is, I am told, the best source on this and this is
the only English version I know of I can't present you with anything in
writing that either of us can read to prove my point. I personally trust
my teacher, who supported himself as a Sanskrit teacher in Rishikesh for
over 20 years, has been practicing Yoga for over 60 years, and has been
a Saraswati monk for almost 50 years, the last 20 or so working mostly
on people with problem Kundalini risings, over Woodroffe but those who
disagree about Vajra's location may not. Conclusion: we'll disagree.
As to the other nadis they are described in the first three verses of
the text. If you pick up the book you should note verse one starts about
2/3 of the way through the book. Woodroffe spent a lot of time on his
own writing. I've never read that part, I've taken advantage of the
translation but don't have a clue what Woodroffe's ideas were, except
for the notes in the text itself.
I'll include one verse (with some of the notes from the book in brackets
like [ ] ) to help show why these books were never intended to be read
and used like most modern westerners want. These books were never
intended to be read by someone who didn't understand the subject already
or was without a teacher available to help. The books were memory aids,
not complete finished presentations for any and all to see. There are
many reasons for that. One is tradition, and it is a very good one in
its own right. Another was the price of "a book" back then. They were
terse because every line cost many times what we pay for a book today.
Also some of the teachings in books were intentionally hidden in "odd"
terms or omitted entirely to keep the information from those people who
didn't deserve it. The moral teachings in Yoga will help you to raise
Kundalini but their real value comes in helping protect you when it does
rise and in protecting others from you should you manage to channel it
to certain brain centers.
Here is Verse 2:
Inside her [...within Susumna] is Citrini, who is lustrous with the
lustre of Pranava [the mantra Om] and the attainable in Yoga by Yogis.
She (Citrini) is subtle as a spider's thread, and pierces all the
Lotuses which are placed within the backbone, and is pure intelligence
[Suddha-bodha-svarupa. From her is derived Jnana by those who are pure
(Samkara)]. She (Citrini) is beautiful by reason of these (Lotuses)
which are strung on her. Inside her (Citrini) is the Brahma-nadi which
extends from the orifice of the mouth of Hara [Siva; here the
Svayambhu-Linga] to the place beyond, where Adi-deva [the Para-Bindhu]
is.
That is verse 2 with a few, not all, of the inline and footnotes. There
are a page more notes that follow plus whatWoodroffe had covered in that
first 2/3 book I skipped. Like most, if not all, of these books it is as
much poetry, actually love poems to the nadis, chakras, and K., as it
is a teaching text. It is not a quick read.
I hope this helps clear up a few points though it may just show why one
needs a good teacher to begin to understand this stuff, a point I've
tried and failed to make more than once.
Namaste,
Joe
______________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:38:44 +0000
From: valerie cooper <madammumATnospamptialaska.net>
To: umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca
CC: amckeonATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Jerry and Glo sittin' in a tree...
Message-ID: <3540EA35.3927ATnospamptialaska.net>
Jerry Katz wrote:
>
> amckeonATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us wrote:
> >
> > I'd tell you two to get a room or take it on the road, but I am enjoying it
> > too much. Carry on!
> >
> > voyeuristically,
> > amckeon
>
> You like us. You really like us.
v: yes, but you'd probably taste better in spaghetti...
--
for what it's worth;
valerie cooper
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/7982/index.html
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:36:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rik <rik_wATnospamrocketmail.com>
To: lobATnospamlineone.net, Kundalini list <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Cc: rik_wATnospamrocketmail.com
Subject: Re: Directions... (Ed)
Message-ID: <19980425033644.17598.rocketmailATnospamweb1.rocketmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Very nice post, Ed! You are quite the writer indeed.
---Ed Jason <lobATnospamlineone.net> wrote:
> DIRECTION
>
> Human endeavours are largely motivated by greed and self
> interest, whatever the professed purpose.
Rik:
Yep. I'm curious, in order to understand you better,
what your self-interests and motivations are.
[big snip]
> The role of the effective individual is to see
> much more, further and more objectively than others. By
> exercising this capacity and that of knowledge, progress
> is constant.
Change is constant; progress is change in a certain
direction along a specified path. You are saying that
progress along the path of the 'effective individual'
is assured by exercising objectivity? Ok. I would
also like to be an effective individual by the above
criteria. Are there other worthy paths?
> People have through false expectation and lack of genuine
> understanding assumed that spiritual individuals are
> 'nice'. However true spiritual people are beyond such
> considerations. To help people you must be independent of
> their opinions of you.
Yes, many spiritual (and even non-spiritual) individuals
exhibit great love and compassion and the ability
to see good in all. This is indeed independent of being
'nice', as people simply ARE - and are 'human' no less.
The fact of differences in personalities and worldviews
does not disappear between humans, however 'spiritual'.
To help people progress you must be objective -
i.e. you must see people as they are, in themselves
with their attitudes and opinions, and in relation to you
and your environment. To be 'effective' you must observe
the interdependency of your effects on them and their
effects on you, and you must observe this system of
effects *as it is*. This is independence.
> Genuine spirituality is based on effective service and
> transformation of the individual.
I'll admit that I also have this bias. Are there other
'genuine' paths?
> The wishy-washy
> positive reinforcement that occurs in some groups
> produces stagnation and bland, weak individuals.
Definitely not the most 'effective' individuals, I'll
agree, tho possibly the most 'affective' individuals
by sheer numbers.
> True
> spirituality might produce pain and conflict in such a
> setting.
True spirituality is about facing Life, and this process
may introduce pain and conflict as well as bliss and
understanding. Some of us choose more 'hardcore' paths
and are (maybe) thus more 'effective'. Can we effectively
steer others towards a more pleasurable balance?
> Well engineered efforts are for the development of the
> people concerned, the growth of wider society or its
> protection/redirection and the continuation of a
> perceivable mystic legacy. Such behaviour is true social
> engineering, independent of the false ideologies that
> attempt such change without recourse to a higher
> imperative or actual information on the correct
> direction.
So the 'correct direction' is defined purposefully
'for the development of the people concerned'.
Is it implied but not stated that it's simultaneously
defined *BY* the people concerned, for their own
development? If so, then the purpose of the 'effective
individual' is to help many people realize their developmental
needs and encourage them to further their own progress,
along with others of similar inclinations. Is that right,
or have I put too many words in your mouth?
> It is quite natural to prefer the company of those with
> similar understanding. This may not be possible, though
> such people are everywhere. Various groups and
> individuals will purport to be the way to enlightenment.
> Ask them for the results; the finished product.
Yes. This is where it is right to ask "What does enlightenment
mean to me?" On spiritual paths or unspiritual paths,
when seeking guidance, ask "Who do I want to become?
How do I wish to be? and Are my guides exemplary of this
destination?" Ask for references.
> Such false
> groups have a varied and often preposterous position from
> which they expect advancement. The only value of such
> entities is self amusement and veiling spirituality. The
> superficial think the ridiculous is the total of
> spirituality.
Very much agreed. However much you wish to redefine the
boundaries of humanity, the most valuable guidance will
instill in you that first and foremost you ARE human.
(Tho I'll acknowledge an incessant and biased self-interest
in securing my humanity.)
> Lobster (from Beyond Enlightenment)
Thank you Ed. -rik (from behind my self)
_________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free ATnospamyahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:53:00 +0100
From: Delirium <deliriumATnospamfull-moon.com>
To: Kundalini-l <Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Message-ID: <354109B9.54CB8FBATnospamfull-moon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
the easygoing calm
go into that
one is
briefly
that there is
to write at
mirror under
**
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:12:48 EDT
From: MMeyers541 <MMeyers541ATnospamaol.com>
To: sashankaATnospamaismi.ais.it
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: curious
Message-ID: <846214cd.354162c1ATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 98-04-24 07:07:16 EDT, you write:
<< So, we, in India, have a saying, that if you do not hurt anyone, fine,
but you can show your fangs to prevent someone else from hurting you
unnecessarily.
>>
Dear Ashanka,
You've given me some timely words of advice. Thx much, & take care--Michele
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