1998/04/18 22:14
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #305
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 305
Today's Topics:
Re: Snakey stuff [ "Brent Blalock" <blal0004ATnospammaroon.tc ]
Re: IS-NESS [ "Sharon Webb" <shawebbATnospamyhc.edu> ]
Re: HRTZEN: waiting on a friend [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
Re: IS-NESS [ Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com> ]
Re: Snaky stuff [ "Ed Jason" <lobATnospamlineone.net> ]
Wisdom? [ "Ed Jason" <lobATnospamlineone.net> ]
Re: Snakey stuff [ "Ed Jason" <lobATnospamlineone.net> ]
Re: waiting on a friend [ amckeonATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us ]
Help [ WHYASK <WHYASKATnospamaol.com> ]
Re: Help [ Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com> ]
Re: IS-NESS [ Jerry Katz <umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca> ]
The Goddess in charge [ Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com> ]
Re: AutoPost from Kundalini Resource [ onarresATnospaminreach.com ]
Re: IS-NESS [ Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com> ]
Re: IS-NESS [ Jerry Katz <umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca> ]
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 11:24:13 -0500
From: "Brent Blalock" <blal0004ATnospammaroon.tc.umn.edu>
To: "Dan Margolis" <margolisATnospamtransbay.net>
Cc: "Kundalini - L" <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Snakey stuff
Message-Id: <3538d7883e0a002ATnospammhub3.tc.umn.edu>
> From: Dan Margolis <margolisATnospamtransbay.net>
> To: Brent Blalock <blal0004ATnospammaroon.tc.umn.edu>
> Cc: lobATnospamlineone.net; Kundalini - L <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
> Subject: Re: Snakey stuff
> Date: Friday, April 17, 1998 9:20 PM
>
> I left the thread at work but I basically remember a comment and a set of
> questions. The comment was that my post was informative and reasonable.
>
> Thank you. The reason my posts seem so reasonable is that I'm far less
> effective a poster than the lobster is.
What? You've explained in a single letter what I don't think Lobster would
ever have done - shown me the conceptual framework for "real/unreal"
emotions. Lobster never explains why he says what he says. You said what
you said (that some emotions were false, and others true) and then you
explained why (their source is from attachment, aversion, and delusion).
Maybe your definition of better is different. Or maybe you aren't any
better or worse than any other poster, but your writing style is more
compatible with my thinking style.
> While I am able to explain the same
> concepts the lobster is explaining or is busy not explaining clearly,
The latter is the case.
> Ed is
> both outlining some frameworks of thought and causing reactions in the
> readers.
Maybe this is just the result of my thinking style (logical, linear,
concrete, but not void of creativity), but a statement that isn't supported
or backed up by other statements sounds like "talking out of one's ass."
So maybe I'm just totally overlooking what Ed's doing. Or maybe he's doing
what I think he is, but he can still be used as a learning tool. Hmm...
> Understanding can be broken down into three levels: conceptual
understanding,
> intuitive understanding and full being understanding.
> ...
> [Full being understanding] is the understanding that you seek.
Well, if I'd want to understand the ideas for use in my own life, yes. But
the point of all the debate that I'm engaging in is just to get some kind
of explanation of what he thinks and why. Hence, all I'm looking for is a
conceptual understanding of Lob's posts.
Having experienced and seen them all, I have full being understanding of
the 3 types of understanding. :)
> But conceptual knowledge is a good framework
> to move to the next stage of understanding so I continue my postings...
Yes, it is. It is that which I seek. Thank you.
> You're really, really
> pissed off...So what.... this anger can't be measured it exists only in
the
> sense that you feel it.
Yes. Strictly speaking, even though it isn't a physical thing, it does
exist. I think I understand what you were trying to say. When you said it
wasn't "real", you were saying that it is the product of
aversion/attachment/delusion, and vanishes when those 3 thing are removed.
Since those 3 things have their basis in falsehood, I can see how one would
say that anger/sadness/etc. "aren't real".
Somewhat of a word game has occurred (my confusing "real" with "based in
falsehood", but I think we managed to exchange meaningful and helpful
information (at least I learned...).
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:08:31 -0400
From: "Sharon Webb" <shawebbATnospamyhc.edu>
To: <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Re: IS-NESS
Message-ID: <003901bd6aec$9df8db40$c3d11fa8ATnospamsharonwe>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi,
Mark wrote:
Very cool, Sandeep. A child has no judgments. A child has no fear. A
child does not discriminate. A child does not see difference. A child
does not see separation. A child does not see evil. A child does not see
wrong. A child only sees love, joy, happiness, and right. Everything is
good to a child.
Beg to differ, Mark, but IMO, this statement is an idealized view of
childhood that doesn't really exist except in the imagination of adults.
Very young children can and do discern and then, unfortunately, learn to
make judgments. Fear is no stranger to a small child. Children DO see
difference and separation, and children can certainly see what they construe
as wrong and then learn to judge as "evil."
Everything is not good to a child. Everything is not bad to a child. To a
child, everything simply IS. What is different from adulthood is that to a
child everything is new and interesting and magical...and possible.
Sharon
shawebbATnospamyhc.edu
A new fractal gallery and screensaver was posted to this site, 4/3/98:
http://www.fractalus.com/sharon/
USA Today Hot Site; Cosmic Site of the Night: Cool Central Site of the Day;
ENC Digital Dozen; Enchantment Award; ArtSearch Featured Site;
NetTech NeatTech: Web Best ; Eye Candy Award; Studyweb Featured Site;
Lotus Light Award; Wave of the Day; Hot Site Award; Critical Mass Award;
Best of the Planet, People's Choice Award, 1998; WS Award; Treasured Site
Award
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:02:23 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: madammumATnospamptialaska.net
CC: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com, CYBERMINDATnospamLISTSERV.AOL.COM,
heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com
Subject: Re: HRTZEN: waiting on a friend
Message-ID: <35386C1D.48FCATnospamintercomm.com>
valerie cooper wrote:
>
> i shouldn't be here.
> i am moving & working two cyber-like jobs, & - God knows - I am
> grateful. I can hardly keep up, but still i grate full...
> i am down on the dock. that is where my computer is, & i am down here
> while my child is sleeping. still, i am grate full.
> i came down here, alone, really - to work - but i cannot concentrate.
> i am already over-burdened; NOW - someone has sexually molested my
> daughter.
GG
Val anyone would be troubled by this, just breathe first and then detach
and pull your thoughts and energies out of it. Life is experience and
nobody has anything happen that isn't in someway going to influence that
life experience. Children are probably mostly playing but that doesn't
mean that it isn't something to check into because it can be something
else happening here. In our foster parent training we went into sexual
abuse a great deal and there is a tremendous problem when children are
stimulated, who knows how this little girl came into this herself. But
your job as mom is to first get yourself under control, then really open
your eyes and understand what is happening and what happened. Without
coming down like fire on anyone at this point, can you determine what
exactly happened. Has your daughter talked to you about it, is this how
you know something happened? And then what exactly happened? This may be
time for you to go into some conversation about not allowing anyone to
touch her private parts, and empowering her to deal with this. I think
children are at risk because they don't understand or know what to do.
When we teach them about life and simply give them instructions on how
to handle situations they can do this quite well. Then not to make a big
deal out of it so that she doesn't, if she needs counseling on this,
which you may also need... then go get help. These are all things that
you need to decide. How serious is it? Would you believe one out of
every 4 girl children in America have or will be sexually abused, I
think it is one out of 8 for boys... this is really amazing, if it has
happened go into it in a way to help lift it off of her and help her to
understand that she didn't do anything bad or wrong. How old is your
daughter?
What work are you doing on the computer? That sounds interesting.
> I don't know who, & she claims forgetfulness, but SOMEONE DID, & i do
> not understand.
> i never date anyone ever, & she has not been alone with anyone in that
> trailer-trash park; except for one little girl, two years older than
> her, whom someone warned me she was caught didddling with their
> daughter's potties.
> i feel like ca-ca. somebody has been touching my daughter
> inappropriately, & all my buttons from being sexually abused myself are
> all aflame.
> but nobody here cares about that. everybody trying to figger
> "kundalini".
> i hate this shit. children killing children; and - who's to care? some
> perpetuation of sexual abuse - who cares? nobody cares; at least we
> arestill alive to whine...
> what should i say? i am so furious that i should say nothing? just LOVE
> her unconditionally?
> she's 6 years old.
> i am alone. i don't know what to do.
> vc
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
&
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:54:43 EDT
From: Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com>
To: themacmanATnospammacsrule.com, sandeepcATnospambom3.vsnl.net.in
Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: IS-NESS
Message-ID: <94f25bdd.3538e8e4ATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 4/18/1998 9:35:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
themacmanATnospammacsrule.com writes:
<< Very cool, Sandeep. A child has no judgements. A child has no fear. A
child does not discrimintate. A child does not see difference. A child
does not see separation. A child does not see evil. A child does not see
wrong. A child only sees love, joy, happiness, and right. Everything is
good to a child.
Be the child. >>
Harsha: A Sage, however, is Fully Conscious. A child may not be. Reality does
not consist of being like an unconscious infant. Terminology used to describe
Reality such as Sat-Chit-Ananda, Shunya, IS ness is exactly that; terminology.
Use of one particular word over another in description of Reality and claiming
it to be a superior description is trivial. People use different words to
describe the truth due to their background, training, etc. The Tao that can be
described is not the Tao.
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:40:55 -0700
From: "Ed Jason" <lobATnospamlineone.net>
To: "Brent Blalock" <blal0004ATnospammaroon.tc.umn.edu>
Cc: "Kundalini - L" <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Snaky stuff
Message-Id: <199804181756.SAA30639ATnospamboober.lineone.net>
> There is something you didn't respond to. I think it's important, so I'll
> say it again.
A non response - is a response.
What you think is important does not make it so (and vice versa)
> I didn't catch your response in your letter. What is your response?
My response is that you are right. You are too clever for me to answer your points. I know that you are right.
> [[[ Here's my response to your most recent message: ]]]
> > > Actually, I think I remember some Zen guy answering a question like
> that.
> > > His reply was, "mu".
> >
> > No?
>
> So I need to brush up on my Japanese. My point was that any idea, any
> thing that exists can have words to refer to it. There are things that, by
> nature, can't possibly be accurately described without someone experiencing
> them: samadhi, enlightenment, total non-existence, being under the
> influence of certain chemicals... But we have words for them. I just used
> them. And my words can cause thoughts that will lead you to remember what
> those experiences were like. Hence, verbal transmission of wisdom.
Mu means positive negation. It can be translated as 'no'. That is information. Saying 'Mu' does not make you a Zen Master.
Would you please put in words all those experiences we do not have and can not have words for.
What you are talking about is description. If I say 'you have a cat' - you need to absorb and do other things to have an actual cat.
> [[[ Next point... ]]]
>
> > > Lack of counterexamples does not make a thing so. What you
> > > say sounds baseless and false. Are you implying that I should believe
> > > you because I don't have another explanation? That wouldn't be wise.
> >
> > I would prefer you to be wise. Believing me or anything I say is no way
> to > wisdom - of course I wouldn't expect you to believe that.
>
> You aren't backing up or supporting what you're saying. See next response.
Why should I play by your rules. You are right I am wrong. I have nothing to prove. I have nothing to support. In fact I am completely in the wrong and all you say is the truth. So I can not contend with the truth. You are right.
> Why do you believe that love is the only reality? If that is the case,
> then, by definition, nothing else exists. But if it is not the case that
> love is the only reality, then pointing out that sadness is the pain of
> separation from love doesn't mean that sadness is false. If it is not the
> case that love is the only reality, you haven't backed up anything that
> you've said. So your justification for believing that love is the only
> reality is a significant point. I await your explanation.
You await an experience not an explanation. According to your game the word is Love.
> And here's some food for thought: I exist. I am something other than
> love. Therefore, it is not the case that love is the only thing that
> exists.
Ah you have caught me out. Well done. OK I admit it - you don't exist.
> Love is attraction of one object to another. A man loves a woman. A boy
> loves his pet. A jock loves baseball. A patriot loves his country. A
> vain person loves himself. For love to exist, there must be at least one
> object.
>
> You want a proof that I exist? "I think, therefore I am." The one thing
> that I do know... The one thing that any life form truly can know is that
> somewhere, somehow, they do exist.
Well done - you are right again. You do exist.
> We agree about one thing. Almost all of what you have been saying is much
> different than that which I believe. We disagree.
Right again. We disagree.
> [[[ And then there's this point. And a big one, too. ]]]
good, that is the one I will ignore - but I think you are right.
Never having been more wrong
Lobster
PS
PEACE AND LOVE TO ALL
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:33:43 -0700
From: "Ed Jason" <lobATnospamlineone.net>
To: "Kundalini list" <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Wisdom?
Message-Id: <199804181756.SAA24928ATnospamboober.lineone.net>
However many holy words you read, how many you speak, what good will they
do you if you do not act upon them?"
~ Charles Manson
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:59:30 -0700
From: "Ed Jason" <lobATnospamlineone.net>
To: "Dan Margolis" <margolisATnospamtransbay.net>,
"Brent Blalock" <blal0004ATnospammaroon.tc.umn.edu>
Cc: "Kundalini - L" <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Snakey stuff
Message-Id: <199804181756.SAA07533ATnospamboober.lineone.net>
> Thank you. The reason my posts seem so reasonable is that I'm far less
> effective a poster than the lobster is. While I am able to explain the same
> concepts the lobster is explaining or is busy not explaining clearly, Ed is
> both outlining some frameworks of thought and causing reactions in the
> readers. His postings are far more challenging because they cause a person to
> question their own values and to try to figure out what he is saying and why
> sometimes his postings don't seem reasonable or logical.
mmm . . .
There is great value in the kind, the generous, the gentle, the reasonable and logical. People provide what they can. What I find unacceptable about Lobster is his tendency to create situations and reactions that cause people distress. It is all very well to think that these high minded ideals exist in the pesky cructacean but they might also be reflective of his inner condition. He might be unlogical and unreasonable and lacking in basic human qualities.
I personally do not trust anything he says.
Most Kind Regards
Lobster
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:15:53 -0500
From: amckeonATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: waiting on a friend
Message-ID: <1319209943-25846662ATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
<X-No-Archive: yes>
>NOW - someone has sexually molested my
>daughter.
>I don't know who, & she claims forgetfulness, but SOMEONE DID, & i do
>not understand.
>i never date anyone ever, & she has not been alone with anyone in that
>trailer-trash park; except for one little girl, two years older than
>her, whom someone warned me she was caught didddling with their
>daughter's potties.
It is good that your daughter told you right away. That says something
about how close you are. Many mothers never hear about it until their
daughters are adults, or not at all. In other words, you are already doing
something right. Actually being listened to is something many children
never get. You are listening and believing her. That is very important.
This forgetfulness that has come upon her is quite common. Try to be
emotionally neutral to it. I understand your wanting to find out the
responsible party, but your daughter may experience your upset with her
forgetfullness as being upset with her, which leads to her blaming herself
for what happened. In the right setting and with an expert helper, she will
be able to remember what she needs to in order to heal.
I have a "friend" who went through family therapy with a daughter who had
gone so far off the deep end she had become a danger to herself. After two
years of therapy the truth still didn't come out as to why the daughter was
"acting out." The father is conveniently in another state. Therefore the
mother was blamed for having poor parenting skills.
Many years later after the daughter is 18, she blurts out the story of
sexual abuse by a grandfather, and all becomes much clearer. Still, those
years of therapy could have been put to better use.
My point, and I actually have one, is that Ann has given you good advice.
Action does need to be taken to help your daughter deal with this now so
that it is not driven underground where it can fester. And if another
little girl is the culprit, she needs help as well, not only for herself,
but to avoid any possible future victims. You can start with the police,
they will often then be able to refer you to the other agencies.
Hang in there Valerie, we're pullin' for ya,
amckeon
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:30:01 EDT
From: WHYASK <WHYASKATnospamaol.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Help
Message-ID: <8a5af28a.35390d4bATnospamaol.com>
Hello My name is Kristin,
I am trying to change from being sad and low. Please send me support in
prayers or in other ways. I wish to change but need your help. Please help me.
Kristin
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:31:48 EDT
From: Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com>
To: WHYASKATnospamaol.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Help
Message-ID: <a07cc748.353929d5ATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 4/18/1998 1:31:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, WHYASKATnospamaol.com
writes:
<< Hello My name is Kristin,
I am trying to change from being sad and low. Please send me support in
prayers or in other ways. I wish to change but need your help. Please help
me.
Kristin >>
Harsha: Hi Kristin. I am glad you posted. People will send you their love and
prayers. If you feel appropriate, please share your specific circumstances.
Some times list members can give useful suggestions. There are a lot of good
people here. Sadness, grief and pain are unavoidable in life. Sometimes we
just have to hang in there until it gets better. We all understand what it
means to be suffering. God bless you with peace of mind.
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:24:10 -0700
From: Jerry Katz <umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca>
To: Sandeep Chatterjee <sandeepcATnospambom3.vsnl.net.in>
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: IS-NESS
Message-ID: <3539604A.2F43ATnospamns.sympatico.ca>
Sandeep wrote: (deleted 99% of letter revealing thoughts of one grounded
in spiritual reality...)
> In my journey I have felt IS -NES
Not easy to feel when there are so many "spiritual stimuli" coming at
us, let alone the physical and psychological.
We tend to think we need an experience, a stimulation, a phenomenon,
when all there is is the is-ness or suchness of these, not as a quality
but as sole nature or being.
Jerry
___
Nondualism
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada
"I Am the atmosphere in which Scriptures agree to exist. I Am That."
The Wild Song of Standing Free, Ch.1, V. 18.
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:00:38 EDT
From: Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com>
To: aird.houseATnospamzetnet.co.uk, Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: The Goddess in charge
Message-ID: <73879751.35393097ATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 4/18/1998 1:05:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
aird.houseATnospamzetnet.co.uk writes:
<< pray for her that she is guided to the highest choice for her. I
always look forward to your post because of the humour expressed in
them. I do not understand the nuts and bolts of Kundalini but I dont
feel that I personally need to as I have faith that THAT is guiding
me and Godess Kundalini is in charge of the process. All I have to do
is be open in trust and love for what ever happens.
In respect and love
Sai Ram
Chris. >>
Harsha: Chris, I read your note. You have a beautiful attitude. We should be
concerned for our friends and pray for them. A devotee need not understand
"nuts and bolts" of the Shakti. Faith and devotion are the engines that drive
spiritual progress. When one has overwhelming devotion for the Supreme in the
heart, all techniques become superfluous. With devotion and surrender, one
developes purity of mind and is at ease. Meditation, Samadhi and Self-
awareness come naturally. What you already have is enough. Since you mentioned
the Goddess, given below are three poems on the Goddess which you may enjoy
reading. On the Web, I write under the name Harshacharya and the poetry is
under that name. Best wishes.
http://www.telebyte.nl/~frans/kundalini/poetry.html
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:04:37 -0700
From: onarresATnospaminreach.com
To: Briony123ATnospamaol.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: AutoPost from Kundalini Resource Center
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980418160437.006d45fcATnospammail.inreach.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Trystan,
Welcome to the kundalini list, it is our pleasure to have you join us.
There are some great discussions, humor, sharing, and of course advice from
some of our more enlightened people (I'm not one of them)... So anytime you
wish, jump in - there is sure to be someone whom will answer any questions
you may have. Blessings
At 05:07 PM 4/17/98 -1000, Trystan g. Dean wrote:
>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:40:34 EDT
From: Harsha1MTM <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com>
To: umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca, sandeepcATnospambom3.vsnl.net.in
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: IS-NESS
Message-ID: <2af17986.35394804ATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 4/18/1998 4:02:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca writes:
Jerry states: Not easy to feel when there are so many "spiritual stimuli"
coming at
us, let alone the physical and psychological.
Harsha: Keeping in mind Jerry that you were crying out recently for sex, money
and Chinese food, I would say you can feel! You can feel buddy! Harsha
advises Jerry to not worry about the stimuli, physical, psychic, or spiritual.
Jerry comments further: We tend to think we need an experience, a stimulation,
a phenomenon, when all there is is the is-ness or suchness of these, not as a
quality
but as sole nature or being.
Jerry >>
Harsha asks the following: What is experience Jerry? And what is non-
experience? Does the Sole Nature of Being depend on whether you are engaged
in experience or avoiding some experience (physical, psychic or spiritual)?
If the "is-ness or suchness" depend on fulfillment of some "condition" or lack
of some "condition" then it is not is-ness or suchness. There is no magic in
using particular words or using words in a particular way. The Magic is the
is-ness which we call the Self. Recognition of THAT does not depend on the
existence of some unique condition or lack of any particular condition (such
as physical, psychic, or spiritual experience). So why be bothered about
stimuli?
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:37:39 -0700
From: Jerry Katz <umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca>
To: Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: IS-NESS
Message-ID: <3539A9C3.6A7DATnospamns.sympatico.ca>
Jerry Katz wrote:
> Jerry states: Not easy to feel when there are so many "spiritual stimuli"
> coming at
> us, let alone the physical and psychological.
> Harsha: Keeping in mind Jerry that you were crying out recently for sex, money
> and Chinese food, I would say you can feel! You can feel buddy! Harsha
> advises Jerry to not worry about the stimuli, physical, psychic, or spiritual.
Jerry writes:
Yeah, I forgot about that. Chinese food. Okay, I change my entire mind.
No, but seriously, when I said "not easy to feel" I was referring to
Sandeep having said that he felt "is-ness." I was saying that it is not
easy to feel (or know, realize, understand) IS-ness when there are so
many stimuli to deal with. It's why people take to meditation.
> Jerry comments further: We tend to think we need an experience, a stimulation,
> a phenomenon, when all there is is the is-ness or suchness of these, not as a
> quality
> but as sole nature or being.
Jerry maintains,
That is what I see around me. People going after this goal and that one,
when there is only suchness, not the experiences or goals at all.
Suchness is not part of or a quality of experience. There is not
experience. There only appears to be.
> Harsha asks the following: What is experience Jerry? And what is non-
> experience?
Jerry:
The same. I could just as well have said, "We tend to think we need a
non-experience..." Perhaps it is most accurate to say, "There is neither
experience nor not experience."
Harsha:
> Does the Sole Nature of Being depend on whether you are engaged
> in experience or avoiding some experience (physical, psychic or spiritual)?
Jerry:
How can it? You're putting words in my mouth. (Which is okay if they are
accompanied by snow peas and water chestnuts.)
Harsha:
> If the "is-ness or suchness" depend on fulfillment of some "condition" or lack
> of some "condition" then it is not is-ness or suchness.
Jerry:
Fair enough, but if you want to cut like a diamond, is-ness and suchness
are not is-ness or suchness, they are only said to be that.
Harsha:
> There is no magic in
> using particular words or using words in a particular way. The Magic is the
> is-ness which we call the Self.
Jerry:
I disagree. Magic pertains to exertion of influence, therefore, duality.
So there IS magic in using words in particular ways. But magic is not
IS-ness or suchness or Self, unless one is already resident within the
Self, in which case there is only the Self.
Harsha:
> Recognition of THAT does not depend on the
> existence of some unique condition or lack of any particular condition (such
> as physical, psychic, or spiritual experience). So why be bothered about
> stimuli?
Jerry:
It is just my observation that some people are bothered about or taken
by stimuli of all sorts, and it was from that disposition I was
speaking. To summarize, IS-ness or suchness or The Self is not a quality
or part of anything. It is what is. There neither is nor is not
anything.
>From the nondual perspective, you speak correctly. I like to speak from
all sorts of dispositions, not taking any of them, including the
nondual, seriously. There are all sorts of listeners and I am all sorts
of speakers.
________
Nondualism
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada
"I am precisely the perfect ocean. Who is it that pees in me? With
what?"
The Wild Song of Standing Free, Ch. 3, V. 15
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