1998/04/11 00:35
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #287
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 287
Today's Topics:
Re: Sufi [ Jerry Katz <umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca> ]
AutoPost from Kundalini Resource Cen [ SILENCE AZIAM <AZIAMATnospamSWBELL.NET> ]
Re: What enlightenment isn't... [ "Ed Jason" <lobATnospamlineone.net> ]
Re: Freda's Comments on HTML posts a [ "Ed Jason" <lobATnospamlineone.net> ]
Meditation, was: HTML posts and the [ Ann Morrison Fisher <annfisherATnospamstic ]
Sisyphus & the Rock of Life [ "Sandeep Chatterjee" <sandeepcATnospambom3 ]
Menstruation, Kundalini: Biological [ MMeyers541 <MMeyers541ATnospamaol.com> ]
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:33:30 -0700
From: Jerry Katz <umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca>
To: margolisATnospamtransbay.net, lobATnospamlineone.net
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Sufi
Message-ID: <352F0EB9.D7AATnospamns.sympatico.ca>
Dan wrote:
>> > However, I don't know all there is to know about Osho. My one question though
>> > is Did he leave behind any fully enlightened students? That to me seems the
>> > best way to judge a spiritual teacher.
Ed wrote:
> That is indeed a good test - or is it?. What is the legacy? >Well he is in the process of deification. His Ashram is now considered a >'Buddha Field'. Soon miracles that never happened will be attributed to >him. The people that have been emotionally crippled and >institutionalised by the unbalanced practices he instigated - that will >all be forgotten. Osho - the Divine - it begins . . .
> I know some people have gained nourishment from the words and >stories he provided. That is OK. However the genuine food is also >available and if you wish for a balanced diet, you must learn what is >nutrition and what flavouring.
Jerry writes:
Wait. Let me just back up and say that I have read many of Rajneesh's
books dating from when he was still little known. I have found his
writings as valuable to me as any scripture. Period. That is my
contention and you loan some support to it.
I have never been drawn to his Ashram. I've stated in earlier posts that
the Guru lives in a kind of dilemma. Don't get me started on that one
again, but it is the source of problems in some, not all, spiritual
communities. I recognize that there have been tremendous hazards with
Rajneesh.
Jerry wrote:
> > I feel I can evaluate myself, but not a spiritual teacher. I can
> > evaluate how I feel with a teacher, but not the teacher.
Ed wrote:
> And that Dear Friend is precisely the problem. Osho feels OK. >His teachings seem fine. It is all designed to be superficially >wholesome - he fulfills peoples fantasy of how a Guru talks and behaves. >So the question you might consider is can I trust my feelings? Do my >senses always relay the truth of the matter? How do I develop the >capacity to recognise the Real?
Jerry writes:
No, Dear Friend, it is precisely the solution. The question of whether I
can trust my feelings, and the question of the validity of sense
experience, and the resolution of those questions, are prefatory to the
serious spiritual life as they allow one to feel or intuit deeply. That
done, I can evaluate any number and quality of stimuli, of which the
prospective spiritual teacher is just one. Knowing myself, I trust
myself.
Jerry wrote:
> > So if I feel as though I am going deeper into understanding in the
> > company of anyone or anything at all, that person or thing might become
> > my teacher for a while.
Ed wrote:
> If you have the capacity to glean the wheat from the chaff - all well >and good. Quite often people are attracted by the wheat and end up with >straw. You are right - anything and anyone can be learnt from - when we >develop the capacity to discern the genuine teaching.
Jerry writes:
So people end up with straw. So what? It happened in Kindergarten and
it'll always be that way. Not everybody that follows Rajneesh or Osho
ends up in a mental institution. Some just end up with straw. There are
risks in every venture. Psychological stability is fundamental to any
spiritual quest. Somebody has to be responsible to assure that stability
and, if it is to be undermined in the course of spiritual development,
someone has to be responsible for that. Rajneesh was remiss in that
regard, it would appear.
I would like to think that people could approach this list/forum and
receive good recommendations in which the wheat is clearly identified.
No I would never recommend anyone get involved with Osho's Ashram. I
didn't in the Seventies and I wouldn't now. But his books are good.
Jerry wrote:
> > But Mark Collins tells about a Sufi school in which the student may be
> > given the opportunity to thrust a sword into his abdomen.
Ed wrote:
> This is not a Sufi school. This is the equivalent of hook >hanging or fire walking. Yoga has nothing to do with some of the silly >practices of professional 'Holy Men' in India. If you want a circus, >fine.
> These Yezidi practices are not condoned by Sufis. It may also >interest you to know that Rumi specifically instigated his whirling >dance for a time and a certain people. He made it quite clear that >whirling was not suitable for everyone. Do the Mevlevi Dervishes >advertise this fact? Of course not - they are too busy being dizzy - >thinking they are close to the divine. Have you heard of the Sufi >practice of gazing at the beardless? Try and introduce that and I wonder >how seriously it would
> This list is devoted to kundalini. A supposed spiritual force >and energy. It has transformed the lives of people on this list. Many of >them have developed a sincere interest in spiritual disciplines. Many of >us have spent decades involved in these practices. Osho is a dead end.
> Zen works (it has and still produces enlightened people). It >isa severe and hard system. However it works.
> Want something easier? Well you could always try a dead end for >a while . . .
Jerry writes:
I take back my comment on the sword. I do not mean to show disrespect,
and I do distance myself from discussions on the details of kundalini
activity, as I do not engage in the related spiritual disciplines and do
not feel I can intelligently contribute. What I do is sit back and
listen in amazement to some knowledgeable and articulate people. I
recognize your expertise in spiritual disciplines and accept what you
say about Osho being a dead end when it comes to these disciplines that
you have knowledge about
Best always,
Jerry
______
Nondualism
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:23:29 -1000 (HST)
From: SILENCE AZIAM <AZIAMATnospamSWBELL.NET>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: AutoPost from Kundalini Resource Center
Message-Id: <199804110523.TAA01793ATnospamhaleakala.aloha.net>
IF THE GODDESS KUNDALINI HAS BEEN AWAKENED IN ONE THEN I FEEL THAT THE BABTISM
BY WATER MUST HAVE OCCURED AT SOME POINT IN THIS OR PAST LIFE, SHE IS THE BABTISM
BY FIRE,
WHICH IS THE "BORN AGAIN" THING THE BIBLE SPEAKES OF.
THE FIRST THING SHE TAUGHT ME WAS THAT ALL RELIGIONS LED TO THE SAME GOAL.
SHE HAS BURNED OUT MUCH DARKNESS FROM MY UNCONSCIOUS, SOMETIMES
THOUGH OUTWARD ACTS BUT MORE I FEEL THROUGH KRIYAS.
AFTER MORE JOURNEYS THAN CAN BE MENTIONED HERE I FOUND SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI!!!!
THROUGH HIS TEACHING SHE IS MOVING INTO THE HEART OF HEARTS
THIS IS FINNALY BRINGING THE PEACE I FEEL WE ALL SEEK
SHE MOVES MORE RAPIDLY IN THE HOLY GRAIL WHICH I FEEL IS A MIND EMPTY
OF NOISY THOUGHTS, A MIND THAT IS ON HOLD, AT REST ETC.
WHEN I CAN JUST BE WITH ONLY BREATHING AND BEING AWARE THAT I AM,
SHE IS JOYFULL AND REWARDS MENTAL STILLNESS GREATLY!
THIS MENTAL STILLNESS SHOULD BE JOINED ONLY WITH A QUEST FOR
ONES SOURSE, ORIGIN, BRAHAMAN, SELF, ETC
BUT WHEN THOUGHTS STOP JUST BE RESUME THE QUEST ONLY WHEN
THOUGHTS COME AGAIN
ASK WHO AM I, WHENCE AM I, FROM WHAT DO I OWE THIS AWARNESS OF BEING?
THIS CAUSES A SORT OF MENTAL IMPLOSION WHICH STOPPES THOUGHTS
I FEEL THE GOAL DRAWING CLOSE NOW
OF COURSE i WILL NOT BE THERE WHEN I REGAIN "MY"-SELF
REMEMBER THE BODY IS NOT WHO YOU ARE.
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:10:58 -0700
From: "Ed Jason" <lobATnospamlineone.net>
To: "Sharon Webb" <shawebbATnospamyhc.edu>, <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Re: What enlightenment isn't...
Message-Id: <199804110531.GAA22165ATnospamboober.lineone.net>
> In Sharon's mind, enlightenment isn't...
> moments of bliss
> extended periods of bliss
Hi Sharon,
Moments of bliss and ecstasy are experienced through sex, drugs, hormonal changes and quite spontaneously. So feeling blissed out is no indication of anything. Nice though :-)
> feeling connected to God, the universe, or others
Harmonisation or attunement can be induced by religious fervour, being in Love, rhythmic dance, chant or other forms of trance induction.
> feeling that there is only one...and no other....
Feeling that all is one, connected and indivisible sometimes creates a profound certainty. However we are also multiple and individual. We have to move above both individuality and the loss of separation.
> kundalini awakening
> experiencing the void
> experiencing the silence
> experiencing love
> feeling that one is filled with love
> eruptions of light within the body
> perception of light within the head
> expansion into the moment
> ESP
> empathic experiences
> ability to perceive or manipulate energy
> experiencing unconditional love
> giving unconditional love
> having someone else tell you that you are enlightened
> The reason Sharon holds this opinion is that she has experienced all of the
> above...except the last...and she is not enlightened.
>
> She is not even close. :-)
Well done on recognising how far you are and on throwing away so many supposed experiences that many are convinced by. To not even be close - how wonderful to be as near as that . . .
EVOLUTION
Enlightenment is an evolutionary stage not a theistic
comprehension. Buddhists have no concept of deity. The
Tao has existence and yet is not. As well as the thinking
immanence of being, higher mystical expression alludes to
absence as well as presence. The void, unknowable,
unthinkable is part of mature experience.
Your enlightenment is from you and for you. Hanging on to
God is a stage, just as insisting on void. Do not rush
the stage you are at. Allow the progression its natural
time and direction. God is such a profoundly complex
experience that it simplifies the person. If you are a
strong believer in God, this is right and proper but it
is not everything. There are stages beyond belief for and
against. The enlightenment process is possible for the
irreligious or secular. It may foster in them a change in
perspective that is more orientated towards the arts and
altruistic behaviour. As the process is internal they may
provide an explanation based on ideas of alterations in
body chemistry or psychological explanations. There is no
reason why such explanations should not be equally valid
and open to investigation.
Spiritual materialism as well as the crude and obvious
formulations has other more subtle manifestations: The
worship of knowledge or God even for its own sake has no
place in the settling of truth which is not in action,
worship or its opposite. Acceptance is not passive or in
conflict. It is the allowance of the end of journeying.
Movement and stillness become meaningless.
Ideas of transition and change and leaving behind
previous vehicles, knowledge bases and behavioural models
are equally subtle ego states for they still appertain to
the idea of movement to higher states.
Intense intellectual study or religious practice becomes
the focus of a group; attracting people on this basis.
The ecstatic mystic who expresses only the Truth may
never gain the acceptance needed to instigate a complete
program of evolution. All formulations can be gauged by
their members. Superior contact must produce superior
results.
Using the process of consciousness in a new way outside
of definition is the hallmarks of many forms of
mysticism. In order to break the tendency to know, feel
or sense this new mentation, a movement is often induced
towards apparently nonsensical practices.
Alleged higher consciousness always can be described or
understood, the genuine article is too nebulous to be
ascribed any quality. The spurious is always keen for
verification; the real is its own answer.
EXERCISE
So called higher senses are meaningless until proper
evaluation of existing senses occurs. Bias, conditioning,
expectation, choosing to be misinformed, inappropriate
screening and so on, all limit rather than expand our
possibilities. The enlightened have always attempted to
improve the existing possibilities before going any
further.
The techniques of sensory stilling through meditation may
initially provide a more accurate understanding. However
used in certain unbalanced and unsupervised ways
meditation may provide altered perceptions as biased as
the previous mind state. The effects of meditation can be
somatic and similar to drug addiction and just as
dangerous to the system. Meditation like any technique in
isolation is not a cure-all but must be used within a
balanced range of procedures. There are similar
difficulties with excessive prayer and unsupervised
chanting, energy invocation systems etc. Admitting the
possibility of error in our contemplation allows the
awareness of error should it occur.
People are at different stages of development and
distinct in their needs. This means people must be
provided with appropriate exercises, dissuaded from doing
exercises or what ever. When a system offers the same to
everyone it may be of benefit to some but hold back
others.
A beneficial and appropriate practice should bring an
individual to a state where they can gauge and refine
themselves. People who practice chanting, meditation,
prayer etc. may well experience change. CHANGE IS NOT
PROGRESS. In fact the very experience of change may
convince an individual that progress has occurred when
this is not the case. They may just be 'moving about'
rather than moving forward.
The drifting back into unenlightened thought though never
complete is what Sufis call `earth sickness'. The most
realised individuals have overcome sufficient of their
natures to not need props to reestablish awareness. They
use their everyday life and experience as part of their
evolution. However for the lesser mystic there are
several techniques, some of which are:
1. Concentration and exclusion
Concentration on a singular point of reference and/or
exclusion of superfluous thought results in heightened
awareness. This can be achieved by any form of relaxed
focus on a single point in space, sound or being.
2. Immersion
Complete absorption in activity and being is achieved by
bringing the mind constantly into awareness. Immersion is
activity with awareness.
3. Slowing
Slowing physical movements in order to observe them is
the simplest example of this. Slowing and pausing ones
interaction, being just that little bit ahead of what is
going to be said or done allows one the capacity to
observe and decide what and how to express.
The slowing of physical and mental expression allows for
easier observation with which this must be tied.
4. Inspiration
An open mind state allows one to be in communion with
aspects of the internal or greater mind. From here a
course of action can be allowed entrance.
5. Awareness
Focus on the presence is the development of a sense of
awe and surprise, a feeling of freshness and delight in
each moment.
The ability to meditate whilst engaged in gainful
employment and activity is of tremendous potential for
the work dominated West. The development of guilds, the
scientific attitude of alchemists and the efforts of
artists and artisans all contain this dual nature.
6. Asceticism
People who lock themselves in monasteries, hermitages or
perform acts of deprivation are quite often unbalanced.
The true ascetic finds such behaviour easy not difficult
and is therefore expressing his or her nature rather than
suppressing it. True asceticism is the performing of
observances that cause manageable degrees of voluntary
not masochistic deprivation.
7. The release of negativity
>From negative qualities, experiences and even behaviour
good can come. Inducing negative mind states to give them
expression and release might today be seen as a process
of holistic therapy. These negative states may be avoided
until such time (usually inappropriate) as they surface
unintentionally.
8. Dissolving
This is the quality of attaining to one of unspirituality
and unimportance. Any aura of sanctity or specialness has
gone. Dissolving into the environment by being simple,
plain and neutral.
9. Creative Imagination or Visualisation
Creating and investing with power imagined archetypes of
sanctity. Creating and maintaining a link with these
creations.
People assume that higher characteristics can be
displayed when it best suits the individual. In fact this
is just play acting and displayed by many 'spiritually
minded' people. High minded generosity and other
qualities are constant reminders that they exist as
permanent conditions.
As well as the visible are a range of inner qualities
that those with perceptions may enjoy. These
paradoxically call attention to and protect the mystic.
When through circumstance they may be occasionally
exposed the people involved may learn from the process.
Love
Lobster (not even close enough to know distance)
-----------------
Listening to a tape of Jack Kornfield reading his book, A PATH WITH HEART.
He recalls interviewing the Dalai Lama for Public Radio, and after the
interview, the Dalai Lama leaned toward him for a private exchange.
Kornfield assumed the D.L. would have something to say about teaching
meditation, something "professional," but instead he said, "You are so
skinny. You should eat more."
The Dalai Lama as Jewish mother. :-)
----------- forwarded ---------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:39:55 -0700
From: "Ed Jason" <lobATnospamlineone.net>
To: "Harsha1MTM" <Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com>, <fredaATnospamblarg.net>,
<serpentATnospamdomin8rex.com>
Cc: <kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Freda's Comments on HTML posts and the K-list website.
Message-Id: <199804110532.GAA06981ATnospamboober.lineone.net>
Harsha says of Freda:
Don't worry what anyone says.
You are blessed because you have the capacity to give.
Blessed indeed.
On a recent post it was mentioned that people may be afraid to de-lurk because their experiences may be derided.
I deride - not the experiences which are personal and valid but the interpretations.
If someone gives - this is a blessing. If they give because 'they are a spiritual person' they are taking . . .
Today in Northern Ireland a great risk, an 'impossible' peace agreement came into being.
So I suggest those who fear ridicule or refuse to post for other reasons take a risk. You may be surprised at what is possible.
All we are saying . . .
Is Give
Peace
A chance
Lobster
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:46:52 -0500
From: Ann Morrison Fisher <annfisherATnospamstic.net>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Meditation, was: HTML posts and the K-list website.
Message-Id: <l03010d02b154ad27e4bbATnospam[207.71.50.169]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
freda <fredaATnospamblarg.net> wrote:
>...there is lots of talk here about meditation, but all of us
>don't meditate, (I don't, its not relevent to me, at this moment
>anyway, it may be this afternoon however, the more I learn about it the
>more relevent it becomes,)
Hi, Freda,
Sending you something that I posted to a friend on another list:
>>Since I've never meditated, ...
>
>Actually, I think you have. You just didn't know that some of the things
>you do can be called meditation.
>
>It's been defined as the process of establishing control of the mind-stuff
>or consciousness (chitta). That includes desire-mind (kama-manas) or the
>emotions. It doesn't mean control in the sense of rigidity
>(over-control), it just means being able to do whatever you want to do
>with your consciousness.
>
>When I read some of the old books, I realized that some of the teachings
>aimed at new students were designed to help people become focussed in the
>intellect without the emotions. There must have been a time when many
>more people were mostly emotional, or at least didn't have control over
>them. I was amazed, because I don't get students who need help to be
>intellectual without being emotional.
>
>I almost had one - she came to an informational meeting before a new
>meditation group was to start. She told me afterward that she had a
>problem that wouldn't wait for the first class. She had a job interview
>coming up, and her problem was that she would always get so emotional that
>she would flub the interview. She said, "I just think about it, and I
>have pain right here, " and she put her hand over her solar plexus.
>
>I tried to talk to her about handling her emotions, and I discovered that
>she had no idea at all what I was talking about. It had never occurred to
>her that anyone could be without emotion - unemotional - for even a minute!
>
>Well, I never talk to new students about centers, because I don't want
>them focussing on centers - don't want to raise overt K. prematurely. But
>she already knew she had pain in the solar plexus, and I couldn't think of
>another way to help. So I said, "You know that pain you get here?" <hand
>over the solar plexus> "Yes," she said. "Well, I want you to feel that
>same energy here." <hand over throat center> She tried it and it worked -
>she did feel something there. So I told her to do that at odd times -
>whenever she thought about it - and then do it just before she went in to
>the interview.
>
>The next time I saw her, she said it worked fine and she got the new job.
>But her problem was solved then, so she didn't join the meditation class!
>
>The people I get are more intellectually oriented than that. They've had
>some education, and they can do reflective meditation, which just means
>thinking about something without letting emotions intrude. And so can
>you, I'm sure.
>
>Then there's thinking about just one thing and keeping away or ignoring
>other thoughts. People vary in how adept they are at this, but most
>people who've done fairly well in school know how to concentrate on one
>thing pretty well. I'm sure you do, too. It's a little different when
>you go inside your head and you're supposed to think of one thing only -
>Love, for instance - but you wouldn't find it that difficult.
>
>And that's about all it takes until you're ready to move into the level
>above the mental/intellectual. That's the buddhic or intuitional plane.
>You know what intuition is - the Aha! experience, when an answer suddenly
>pops into your mind full-blown. The understanding is all there, and you
>just have to think of how to express it in words, or maybe in pictures or
>mathematical formulae. When we work with this plane, we learn to use
>this faculty at will, to leave the intellectual behind and move into
>intuitional thinking.
>
>Then finally the day comes when your intellect drops below the conscious
>level and your normal thinking is intuitional. Your intellect still works
>- you just don't have to pay attention to every little step it takes. You
>think of a question or a problem, you kind of look into space for a
>moment, and the answer is in your head. If you really want to trace back
>and see all the steps your intellect took to reason out this answer, you
>can. But after doing that a few times, you trust your intuition and you
>don't keep on doing it. One of the side benefits of intuitional thinking
>is that you've left behind the constant chatter of the intellectual mind.
>All that chatter may be going on somewhere, but it's not where you live
>any more and you don't hear it.
------
Actually, that's the way I used to teach, protecting people against overt
K. Now I'm studying with Danijel; I've decided to make a switch and teach
his "upstream kriya." It's the fastest method I know of, and I don't see
why I should put my students through years of sometimes agonizing "working
through" their problems at various levels when we could just use their K.
to clear away the blocks. I wanta hand out the Windex to clean up all
those dirty windows!
Besides, I think if I went into a new class of non-K. people now, they
wouldn't be non-K. for very long! :))))))))))
Love,
Ann
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:30:14 +0530
From: "Sandeep Chatterjee" <sandeepcATnospambom3.vsnl.net.in>
To: <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Sisyphus & the Rock of Life
Message-ID: <01bd650f$188c3ac0$b53336caATnospamdefault>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi everybody,
The Greek mythological story of Sisyphus,King of Corinth tells of him
condemned by the gods to Hades and eternal punishment.
Endlessly he had to roll an enormously heavy boulder up a hill-- and when
he got it to the top, it would roll down again.
He would struggle to get it to the top only to watch it roll down over and
over again, for eternity.
(Many on the WEB would have liked Sandeep to be consigned to such a
fate(grin))
Like all myths, all stories, all kaons it has something to say.
I have discussed this kaon elsewhere and some of the responses to the kaon
were as follows:
-The myth suggests life is a cycle.There is a beginning, a middle and an
end and then it starts all over again
-Keep polishing the mirror again and again till we give up and live in the
moment
-Sisyphus's punishment is awful only if he hopes for an end to it.
-Reminds me of obsessive actions when I am trapped in repetitive cycle of
behavior and thoughts.
-The story represents the idea that there is no hope
-The nature of my mind is never to be satisfied with any accomplishments,
only interested in challenges.Once a thing is accomplished, it does not
mean much.
-Sisyphus is who I am.Living life trying to do something and saying "I
can't".The boulder is "I can't"
It would be interesting to get the views of the members of the Kudalini List
on
this myth.
What would be the enlightened state for King Sisyphus?If he pushes the
boulder for a 1000 years what may he finally have realized?
Looking forward to hearing from all of you out there
Cheers
Sandeep
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 02:32:11 EDT
From: MMeyers541 <MMeyers541ATnospamaol.com>
To: PEGLUMPKINATnospamaol.com
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Menstruation, Kundalini: Biological Occurrences
Message-ID: <113ea444.352f0e6dATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 98-04-11 00:41:27 EDT, you write:
<< Another woman told of how she thought she was dying when she had her first
period and, not wanting to worry her mother, she kept her imminent death a
secret. >>
Hi Peg,
Interesting connection: menstruation & kundalini--natural biological
occurrences...& how terrifying/painful they can be to the uninformed...to a
girl, thinking she's bleeding to death...& a k-activated person who thinks
s/he's going crazy! People need to be k-educated the same way they are
REQUIRED to take sex education in American public schools!--Michele
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