1998/03/31 05:39
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #249
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 249
Today's Topics: Re: PRANAYAMA [ "Cynthia Selene" ]
Re: (no subject) [ Ann Morrison Fisher ] Re: PRANAYAMA [ anandajyoti ]
GOD THE TORTURER [ john light ] Kundalini awakening [ Afperry ]
Please remove me from you mailing li [ "Paolo Giannini" ] Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:46:20 -0600
From: "Cynthia Selene" To:
Subject: Re: PRANAYAMA Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > But I still cannot understand why Yogis who go into samadhi and stop
> > breathing and exit this mortal coil are glorified?? I just don't get it..
> > suicide is suicide, even if one does learn to be very tidy about it. Why
> > are there no true immortals? >
> Stuart: Maybe it was time for them to move on. I really can't say. Is it really
> any different then a person developing an illness in the prime of their life and
> passing on?
Okay. I just joined this list, and I know that I have a very loo...ooong way to go before I am anywhere near as advanced as most of the people on
this list seem to be; however, you just pushed one of my buttons!
YES! There is a difference between someone committing suicide, and dying from an illness. To me. And all I can do is speak to you from my belief
system, which is Wicca. It is wrong to kill yourself. I don't mean as a sin, but the fact (again, my belief system) that if you kill yourself, you
just have to come back and do it all again. You didn't learn the lesson you were supposed to learn in this one particular life. Since you didn't, you
have to come back and do it all again. And again. And again. *Until* you learn the lesson. Cutting one's life short via suicide shows that you
couldn't take the pain, or whatever of this life, and you get to repeat it until you *can* stand the pain and work through the lesson. This is one of
the things that keeps me from killing myself sometimes...that and my children. I just do not want to have to come back and go through the same
old sh** again and again. As I said, though, this is *my* belief system. Hopefully, this makes sense to some of you, even though I know I am such a
neophyte on this path. .>
> > I'll wear this body till Goddess decides otherwise, meantime I'll make
> > sure it keeps breathing. She has put me on this planet and here I'll stay...
Good for you, Mystress! I feel the same way.
BB * Namaste,
Cynthia Selene
Jai Maa!
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:53:21 -0800 From: Kurt Keutzer
To: "kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com" Subject: Dangers of kundalini awakening
Message-ID:
I spent last Thursday with an old friend. The woman had just put her sister in emergency mental care on the day before. What I didn't realize was that
her sister blames her entire history of mental illness on kundalini and in fact her sister showed no signs of mental illness until some years of
practicing a form of kundalini yoga. On the other hand I have been corresponding for some time with members of
Yogi Bhajan's 3HO group and they have often pointed to their apparently flawless (hard to believe) record regarding their members and mental
illness associated with kundalini.
So between these two extreme viewpoints I thought it was time to rethink the ``dangers'' part of my kundalini FAQ - comments are appreciated.
Kurt
Are these methods of awakening kundalini dangerous? What about Gopi Krishna's books?
There are two different kinds of danger involved in kundalini: the inherent danger in an awakened kundalini and the danger associated with
some forceful methods of awakening. As for the inherent danger in awakening kundalini:
If we take the psychological perspective and view kundalini as the power latent in our unconscious then it is easy to understand that awakening this
force is going to bring a greater amount of unconscious material into our consciousness. Unconscious material remains unconscious precisely because
it is uncomfortable to the conscious mind. Therefore, even in the best of circumstances the joy associated with the
awakening of kundalini is likely to be attended with a certain amount of anxiety as kundalini wrests control from the ego and unconscious contents
spill over into consciousness. A number of different factors can ameliorate this situation. First and foremost the presence of a teach in
whom one has confidence can make a great difference. The real demonstration of the skill of a kundalini yoga teacher is more in
their ability to successfully guide the student on the path of kundalini than in their ability to awaken the kundalini. A supportive environment of
fellow practitioners who have undergone the same awakening can provide comfort and confidence.
Finally, a strong and resilient mind capable of coping with this sudden burst of unconscious material will see the student
through any difficulties
If an individual is lacking one or more of these factors then problems can
arise. In particular, individuals with a predisposition to mental illness may be susceptible to particularly challenging kundalini experiences. There
are many documented cases of kundalini pushing people into psychotic episodes. Some individuals have been subsequently helped by healers or
teachers while others, despite a lifetime of searching, remain tormented. The most famous case is an individual named Gopi Krishna who awakened his
kundalini by doing unguided meditation on his crown cakra. His life after awakening was both blessed by ecstatic bliss and tormented by physical and
mental discomfort. Eventually his experience stabilized. He wrote down his experiences in a recently re-released autbiography entitled "Living with
Kundalini." Gopi Krishna's autobiography appears to be an honest representation of his experiences but it is only one extreme datapoint in
the panorama of experience on kundalini yoga. So for some there appears to be an inherent danger in awakening the
kundalini but for the majority of people kundalini the initial awakening may be disruptive but the rewards soon outweigh the cost.
Some forceful methods of awakening kundalini may pose additional dangers. Without proper guidance practices involving extensive concentration or
breath retention can cause mental imbalance or physical discomfort. On the other hand, techniques which work more on the flow of breath and gently
moving attention seem to rarely cause problems. These techniques work more to purify the system preparing it for a kundalini awakening rather than
focusing on awakening the kundalini directly. Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:58:50 -0800
From: Dan Margolis To: djebelATnospamcamalott.com
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: PRANAYAMA
Message-ID:
> YES! There is a difference between someone committing suicide, and dying > from an illness. To me. And all I can do is speak to you from my belief
> system, which is Wicca. It is wrong to kill yourself. I don't mean as a > sin, but the fact (again, my belief system) that if you kill yourself, you
> just have to come back and do it all again. You didn't learn the lesson you > were supposed to learn in this one particular life. Since you didn't, you
> have to come back and do it all again. And again. And again. *Until* you > learn the lesson. Cutting one's life short via suicide shows that you
> couldn't take the pain, or whatever of this life, and you get to repeat it > until you *can* stand the pain and work through the lesson. This is one of
> the things that keeps me from killing myself sometimes...that and my > children. I just do not want to have to come back and go through the same
> old sh** again and again. As I said, though, this is *my* belief system. > Hopefully, this makes sense to some of you, even though I know I am such a
> neophyte on this path.
There comes a point within many practices where you get a glimpse of outstanding freedom. This world does not matter, nothing exists all is empty.
After you have successfully answered how should I live? What is the proper path for me? What do I believe? Eventually you may reach the question Why
should I live? This question can make or break many people. After you've let go of physical attachments, after you've let go of intellectual attachments,
after you've let go of spiritual attachments, what's left. It's at this point that a yogi may choose to leave this plane of existence. This is far different
from suicide, there is much joy at this moment. You're free, completely free. This isn't a negation of life. It's something besides life, next to life...
So at this point do you leave?
The Maharyana Buddhist tradition answers no: you must save all sentient beings.
Many other traditions say that at this point you do the will of the goddess, god, Allah, or another being, your own will has become unimportant.
But a few people choose to leave. Sometimes this is because of a mistake... but if it isn't a mistake and there is no further karma generated from this
action then who is to say it's wrong.
Dan M.
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:14:59 -0800 From: Kurt Keutzer
To: "'kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com'" Subject: Shakti poll
Message-ID:
One thing I've found fascinating is how different people have greater or lesser amounts of shakti.
I thought it would be gratuitously fun (no desire to do a real spiritual teacher rating or anything like that) to get people's perspective on
``who have you met that has the most shakti'' - ``who have you met that has the sweetest shakti''
``who have you met, that wasn't a spiritual practitioner, that has the most shakti''
To get things started:
``who have you *met* that has the most shakti'' Ling Rinpoche, (HH Dalai Lama's late senior tutor)
Swami Muktananda Swami Rudrananda
Swami Chetanananda HH Dalai Lama
Zong Rinpoche (late) Luding Khen Rinpoche
Lati Rinpoche HH Sakya Trizin
Swami Nityananda Lama Tharchin
Reverend Jordan (pentecostal minister when I was a kid) Bruce Kumar Frantzis (martial artist, qi gong and kundalini)
``who have you *met* that has the sweetest shakti'' Kirti Tshenshab Rinpoche
Swami Shivom Tirth HH Dalai Lama
Zong Rinpoche (the new one) Swami Shiv Mangal Tirth
My Sunday school teacher when I was 9 L. B. Wood ( a friend)
``who have you *met*, that wasn't a spiritual practitioner, that has the
most shakti'' a venture capitalist
several CEO's a couple sales guys
(never met any rock stars - but I'll bet they would be up here - ditto for politicians)
Again, this is meant to be a fun, gratuitous exercise. Post your input if
you like - but please no complaints about how meaningless this is - OK? Kind Regards,
Kurt Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:18:49 -0700
From: Stuart To: djebelATnospamcamalott.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: PRANAYAMA Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Stuart: I was not referring to suicides as those whose time it was to move on.
I was referring to Yogis going into samadhi and moving on. There's a big difference.
Peace,
Stuart
Cynthia Selene wrote:
> > > But I still cannot understand why Yogis who go into samadhi and stop > > > breathing and exit this mortal coil are glorified?? I just don't get
> it.. > > > suicide is suicide, even if one does learn to be very tidy about it.
> Why > > > are there no true immortals?
> > > > Stuart: Maybe it was time for them to move on. I really can't say. Is it
> really > > any different then a person developing an illness in the prime of their
> life and > > passing on?
> > Okay. I just joined this list, and I know that I have a very loo...ooong
> way to go before I am anywhere near as advanced as most of the people on > this list seem to be; however, you just pushed one of my buttons!
> > YES! There is a difference between someone committing suicide, and dying
> from an illness. To me. And all I can do is speak to you from my belief > system, which is Wicca. It is wrong to kill yourself. I don't mean as a
> sin, but the fact (again, my belief system) that if you kill yourself, you > just have to come back and do it all again. You didn't learn the lesson you
> were supposed to learn in this one particular life. Since you didn't, you > have to come back and do it all again. And again. And again. *Until* you
> learn the lesson. Cutting one's life short via suicide shows that you > couldn't take the pain, or whatever of this life, and you get to repeat it
> until you *can* stand the pain and work through the lesson. This is one of > the things that keeps me from killing myself sometimes...that and my
> children. I just do not want to have to come back and go through the same > old sh** again and again. As I said, though, this is *my* belief system.
> Hopefully, this makes sense to some of you, even though I know I am such a > neophyte on this path.
> . > >
> > > I'll wear this body till Goddess decides otherwise, meantime I'll > make
> > > sure it keeps breathing. She has put me on this planet and here I'll > stay...
> > Good for you, Mystress! I feel the same way.
> > BB * Namaste,
> > Cynthia Selene
> > Jai Maa!
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:00:08 -0600 From: Ann Morrison Fisher
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Re: (no subject)
Message-Id:
Dan Margolis wrote:
>There are only two permanant things in this world Nirvana and change.
Is this a koan?
Love,
Ann Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:22:44 EST
From: MMeyers541 To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: After Death Communications Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Hi All,
My mother died on 2/23. I spent the last minutes of her life holding her
hand, telling her I loved her, and that we'd both be OK. (I believe this helped her to move on, as the hospice had told me she had signs of dying
within 12-24 hrs., but she actually died w/in a few minutes of my and my brother's arriving at the hospice.)
A few days later, I was visiting some Spiritual websites. Just as I was
reading that the newly departed often stick around awhile w/their loved ones, the lamp on my desk turned off & back on (none of the other electricity was
affected, & that action definitely felt like my mother). Again, I told her I loved her, that we'd both be OK, & she should "Go back."
The same week, I was lying in bed w/my eyes open (either I WAS awake, or I
experienced this as a dream w/my eyes open), and my mother squeezed my hand three times. Told her the same things I had when she died & during her prev.
visit.
This afternoon, I was trying to take a nap. Have been going thru a difficult time lately, & couldn't sleep. I WAS actually thinking how much I missed my
mom & that she was the only one who had ever loved me unconditionally. I was lying on my side. Just then, SHE pulled the covers up over me. I did not see
her, but there is no mistake about it, she pulled the covers several inches over me! This time, I jumped right out of bed. Again, I said that I was OK,
she was too, & told her to "Go back."
Well, it's nice to be assured of your mother's love, but I don't think it's good for either one of us if she keeps visiting. Any suggestions as to how I
might deal with this? Thx--Michele
P.S. Think I'll go for to the grief counseling offered by the hospice, but any ideas of what else I might say to my mother?
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:46:55 -0800 From: anandajyoti
To: Stuart CC: djebelATnospamcamalott.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: PRANAYAMA Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Stuart wrote:
> Stuart: I was not referring to suicides as those whose time it was to move on.
> I was referring to Yogis going into samadhi and moving on. There's a big > difference.
> > Peace,
> Stuart >
> Cynthia Selene wrote: >
> > > > But I still cannot understand why Yogis who go into samadhi and stop > > > > breathing and exit this mortal coil are glorified?? I just don't get
> > it.. > >
> > > Stuart: Maybe it was time for them to move on. I really can't say.
Anandajyoti> It is interesting to note the conversation here. Allow me to share with you what I know of.
Trailanga Swami -the Saint of Benares who lived from 1603 to 1863 in India left his body of his own will. He had commented at the time, "The need for this
shell is expired" and gave instructions as to how his body not to be burnt , but put in coffin, with weights and immersed in the Ganges, in Benares.
Prior to his leaving the body, within the previous two years, through samadhi, he had given public recognition to Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and also Yogi Shyamacharan
Lahiri, the guru of Paramahamsa Yogananda's Guru.
Shyamacharan Lahiri was instructed by Babaji, to leave the body. Bama Khyapa in Bengal province did the same, after giving public recognition to
Yogi Nigamananda. Even in my own family, my grand dad's brother, who was a doctor by profession, in
India in the late 1800 and early 1900's one afternoon came back from his practice, and called upon the ladies in charge of the kitchen, as to what he wished to have
for supper that evening. And he also asked them to let everyone in the extended family know, that every member was needed to be present. during supper that
evening. He was 85 years young. He sat for supper with everyone, and had a chat with everybody, during it.
Then after about half hour, he said to all, it is time for me to go, and he lay down on his left side and breathed his last, with a smile on his face. He was a
widower without any direct children. My brotherinlaw dad died the same way. The elder brother of the same brother-in
-law went the same way with full knowledge of the event. My father had the same kind of known and accepted ending.
It appears from this experiences of mine, to comment, that when the soul's work is done, and one knows it then death or leaving the body is similar to taking off a
garment to put on a new one. Of course , for those who identify with the spirit or the soul and not the body.
In my own generation, I have yet to see the repetition of such episodes.
Paramahamsa Yogananda did the same, prior to his attending the public function to honor him, he had said to prior to leaving the SRF headquarters to Kriyananda, the
then Vice President, which is the best way to go. Kriyananda was surprised at this question, and did not have a clue. The Yogananda replied the question himself, "By
cardiac arrest" Still Kriyananda was puzzled. And at the meeting, while giving his lecture and
wishing everyone well and god speed , he lay his hands on his heart, and was falling, his breath gone already, when Kriyananda and others took hold of his body
and laid it down. Doctors were called and on checking, they wrote on the death certificate, "Cardiac
Arrest being the cause of death." IMHO, I do not consider such a way to leave the body as anything suicidal or
inglorious. Those who pass away in this manner, IMO, do not even care if people call it a
glorious death or not. It is immaterial to them.
Anandajyoti http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6782
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:05:28 -0800 (PST) From: john light
To: m Subject: GOD THE TORTURER
Message-ID:
---Kurt Keutzer wrote:
> > I spent last Thursday with an old friend. The woman had just put her
sister > in emergency mental care on the day before. What I didn't realize
was that > her sister blames her entire history of mental illness on kundalini
and in > fact her sister showed no signs of mental illness until some years of
> practicing a form of kundalini yoga. > On the other hand I have been corresponding for some time with
members of > Yogi Bhajan's 3HO group and they have often pointed to their
apparently > flawless (hard to believe) record regarding their members and mental
> illness associated with kundalini. >
> So between these two extreme viewpoints I thought it was time to rethink
> the ``dangers'' part of my kundalini FAQ - comments are appreciated. > Kurt
______________________ Dear Kurt and Kundalini people:
I have been watching this list for some time and I feel
that it is time to speak my mind. I feel that a kundalini awakening can be very dangerous to certain people. It has been to me! Ever since
my awakening started I have felt tortured! Ripped and burned and pulled and prodded. Most of the time my flesh feels as if it is on
fire! My forehead and chest feel as if someone is hitting them with a hammer relentlessly! There are no angels to help me! Only this
neverending torture. I have reached the point where I feel that I cannot take it anymore. I have even wondered if going on some sort of
drugs may be a better way out! I used to believe in a heavenly father but now I believe in a heavenly sadistic torturer who seems to take
great delight in the sufferings of poor innocent children like myself! Instead of love, I am learning to hate.
So you see, my friends, Kundalini can be dangerous to your health.
jl There are never any answers. Only more and more pain!
some very dangerous >
> >
> Are these methods of awakening kundalini dangerous? What about Gopi > Krishna's books?
> There are two different kinds of danger involved in kundalini: > the inherent danger in an awakened kundalini and the danger
associated with > some forceful methods of awakening.
> As for the inherent danger in awakening kundalini: > If we take the psychological perspective and view kundalini as the
power > latent in our unconscious then it is easy to understand that
awakening this > force is going to bring a greater amount of unconscious material
into our > consciousness. Unconscious material remains unconscious precisely
because > it is uncomfortable to the conscious mind.
> Therefore, even in the best of circumstances the joy associated with the
> awakening of kundalini is likely to be attended with a certain amount of
> anxiety as kundalini wrests control from the ego and unconscious contents
> spill over into consciousness. A number of different factors can > ameliorate this situation. First and foremost the presence of a
teach in > whom one has confidence can make a great difference.
> The real demonstration of the skill of a kundalini yoga teacher is more in
> their ability to successfully guide the student on the path of kundalini
> than in their ability to awaken the kundalini. A supportive environment of
> fellow practitioners who have undergone the same awakening can provide
> comfort and confidence. > Finally, a strong and resilient mind capable of
> coping with this sudden burst of unconscious material will see the student
> through any difficulties >
> > If an individual is lacking one or more of these factors then
problems can > arise. In particular, individuals with a predisposition to mental
illness > may be susceptible to particularly challenging kundalini
experiences. There > are many documented cases of kundalini pushing people into psychotic
> episodes. Some individuals have been subsequently helped by healers or
> teachers while others, despite a lifetime of searching, remain tormented.
> The most famous case is an individual named Gopi Krishna who awakened his
> kundalini by doing unguided meditation on his crown cakra. His life after
> awakening was both blessed by ecstatic bliss and tormented by physical and
> mental discomfort. Eventually his experience stabilized. He wrote down his
> experiences in a recently re-released autbiography entitled "Living with
> Kundalini." Gopi Krishna's autobiography appears to be an honest > representation of his experiences but it is only one extreme
datapoint in > the panorama of experience on kundalini yoga.
> So for some there appears to be an inherent danger in awakening the > kundalini but for the majority of people kundalini the initial
awakening > may be disruptive but the rewards soon outweigh the cost.
> Some forceful methods of awakening kundalini may pose additional dangers.
> Without proper guidance practices involving extensive concentration or
> breath retention can cause mental imbalance or physical discomfort. On the
> other hand, techniques which work more on the flow of breath and gently
> moving attention seem to rarely cause problems. These techniques work more
> to purify the system preparing it for a kundalini awakening rather than
> focusing on awakening the kundalini directly. >
> >
> >
>
_________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free ATnospamyahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:30:25 -0800 (PST) From: john light
To: E Jason , kundalini Subject: GOD THE TORTURER
Message-ID:
Dear Kundalini People:
I feel that it is time to speak my mind. Kundalini can be very
dangerous to one's mental health. Ever since my awakening started I have be burned and prodded and pinched and pulled and pushed. I
experience nothing but pain! I used to believe in a heavenly father before my awakening. Now I believe in a heavenly sadistic torturer who
seems to take delight in hurting innocent people. Instead of love, I am learning to hate. I do not know how much more I can take of this! I
hate it! My skin feels as if it is on fire and my chest and forehead feel as it
someone is constantly hitting them with a hammer. I am starting to thing that the only way out is to go on some sort of drugs. God
certainly does not seem to care. I see no God. I hear no God. All I experience is pain and suffering from this relentless energy that
rips my insides to shreds! God? What God? Kundalini is surely a tool of satan himself!
JL
_______________________
---E Jason wrote: >
> on 29 Mar 98, Mystress Angelique Serpent wrote... >
> > Robert A. Hienlien is one of my Gurus.. and he defined love as "when the
> >happiness and wellbeing of another outweighs all other considerations.."
> >(sic) and mebbie that is a good description of enlightenment, too.. When
> >the happiness and wellbeing of All others out weighs all other > >considerations.
> > A person who lives their life from this perspective (something we
all could try > and move towards) has no time for personal "enlightenment".
> > Be Well
> Be Happy > Grow in Love
> > Lobster (being personal)
> >
_________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free ATnospamyahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:18:05 EST From: Afperry
To: keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Kundalini awakening Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Dear Kurt,
You wrote:
>There are two different kinds of danger involved in kundalini: >the inherent danger in an awakened kundalini and the danger associated with
>some forceful methods of awakening.
IMO neither of these two is a problem per se. You are ignoring a third option, simply that the awakening may be premature i.e. the recipient is not yet ready
to be able to handle this rocket-power in his/her life. I remain of the opinion that ALL techniques of awakening K are inherently dangerous solely on
the premiss that success in one's endeavour may bring about K awakening prematurely - and for no other reason. K should be allowed to awaken naturally
of its own accord at the right time for each individual, at which time the work of the energy will cause minimal disruption and discomfort.
As the Hatha Yoga scriptures so poignantly say:" Kundalini brings liberation
to yogis and bondage to fools".
With blessings, Alan
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:00:05 -0800 From: "Paolo Giannini"
To: Subject: Please remove me from you mailing list
Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0046_01BD5C8B.C7C49280"
Thank you for the experience
Regards Paolo G.
Attachment Converted: "C:\SLIP\EUDORA\ATTACH\kundali5"
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