1998/03/24 21:03
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #228
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 228
Today's Topics: Re: kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #223 [ "Jan Barendrecht" ]
Re: kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #222 [ Harsha1MTM ] Re: God of Chocolate-Enlightenment-V [ "Jan Barendrecht" ]
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 01:14:25 -0000 From: "Jan Barendrecht"
To: Subject: Re: kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #223
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At date: Tuesday, March 24, 1998 2:30 PM, Janpa wrote:
>as someone so aptly pointed out, as far as enlightened ones go, there is >nothing else.
> >This is a statement from the absolute view. Valid. But most of us are
>sorta stuck in a completly relative way of looking at things. On top of >that we hardly are able if at all to see the interconnectedness that is
>the truth of our existence. >
>We travel one step at a time in the dark so to speak. >
>We arent aware of the correct function of our lives. >
>Is it desire that motivates the bodhisattva? Impure bhumi-level >bodhisattva, i'd hazard a guess that ya that is true. Pure level, tho,
>there is something else coming into play. >
>This concept of correct function is something i've been musing about. Its >a fluid concept and i think it applies here.
> >The correct function in relative mode of a coffee cup is to be in the hand
>of the coffee drinker drinking coffee. If person is drinking tea, its a >tea cup.
> >So if a person without ego or attachment is helping others, they are a
>bodhisattva. Its that simple imo. Can you help without desire? >
>There is a woman being chased by a robber with a knife. You are a black >belt capable of helping her. do you *think*? no you *act*. Without
>hesitation, ego, or desire. That is your correct function, and it is very >clear. But if you stop to think 'what is my correct function', she dies!
>you are now guilty of murder too. If you do not stop the robber, you share >in his guilt. here in this space i think is a clue to the motivation of
>the pure bodhisattva. >
>A long way of saying, i dont really know. :) >
>But the correct function of one who has taken the bodhisattva vow is to >fullfil it, of one who is studying under Maharishi to fulfil that path.
>There is one mountain and many paths. >
>And Avatars come back too :) Not to mention angel-type beings. >
>take care :) >
>maitri, >--janpa tsomo
> >
Many discussions ‘mix´ or comment the view from the top of the mountain with the view at its base. If the black belt hero would be a fully enlightened yogi, he would only perceive Self and wouldn´t act. If he would consider life to be an illusion, another popular view, he wouldn´t revert to action either. According to the law for us ‘mere mortals´, not acting would be an obvious case of a criminal act. To add another example: Some time ago, a ‘mere mortal´ was beaten to death, because he made a remark to a few drunken men who were throwing bicycles in the water. Had he been the aforementioned yogi, he would not have acted and would have been physically alive right now. It is clear, that only in a society that from the point of view of ‘mere mortals´ is ideal, i.e. no criminality, poverty, discrimination, destruction of nature, animal suffering etc., there will be no ethical conflict between the statements and (non) actions of a fully enlightened yogi and the everyday experience of the ‘mere mortal´. If one considers ‘a disciple gets the guru (s)he deserves´ to be true , its translation for the masses must be ‘society gets the religion (system of meditation) it deserves´. The basis of society is moral and ethics. Apparently these values are in steady decline and this process of decline won´t stop just by itself, as masses do have inertia and the masses have been increasing ever since. So, imho, the rules in Buddhism, the social guidelines from the NT and the strict social rules in Islam are just efforts to compensate for increasing flaws in the human character, expressed by society. When it comes to desire, the Patanjali Sutras leave no doubt:
II.1 Austerity, study, devotion to God, constitute practical yoga.
II.2 The aim is to attain Illumination and to destroy afflictions.
II.3 Ignorance, egoism, desire, aversion, fear, are afflictions.
Following the thread on desire:
II.7 Desire is longing for pleasure.
Then:
II.11 The grosser afflictions disappear through meditation.
II.10 The finer afflictions disappear as mind disappears in illumination.
It is obvious, that the Patanjali sutras leave no room for matters like the Bodhisattva vow; not even the slightest incentive will be left when mind has finally disappeared in illumination. As seen from the top, living like a hermit (eventually with a job) and practicing according to the Patanjali sutras is right; as seen from the base by ‘mere mortals´, forgetful of the fact that the foundation of modern society is egoism*, it is an extremely selfish lifestyle, especially when the hermit has several talents that could benefit others. Reflecting on ‘society gets the religion (system of meditation) it deserves´: If an enlightened one had to concoct a system of meditation for this era, it would be MMY (Money Making Yoga) for hierarchically structured work-groups (called companies). LOL : - ))
Jan
* primitive egoism (going after the pleasures of the senses, amassing goods etc. no matter the cost in suffering for sentient beings) as opposed to the ‘intelligent´ egoism of the yogi who is intent on Self-realization.
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:22:53 -1000 (HST) From: Robert H Krueger
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: AutoPost from Kundalini Resource Center
Message-Id:
Dear Lobster, Comming from you thats a compliment. It dosn't matter.
You see my friend,words are funny,you can twist them around any way you want,except for in your heart. Like I was saying to an unknown lastnight,Truth is the deadliest virus
of them all. It cant be purged from the systen.It seeks out its enemy and distroys it. My task is over. Leslie and I have a life to live.( incidently she is 34 and very beautiful).Didn't mean to bother nobody. Its hard finding one grain of sand on the desert, but I did it.It's amazing how many people out thre believe that the Godess Kundalini is the master of the house. It's not It's JOHOVAH and if you ask her she will tell you. If any of you K's ever get that far. Have a safe journey. I would rather swim upstream. Im done posting and off the list to catch up on my life. Good luck to you all. Robert Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:37:25 -0500
From: "Rick Puravs" To:
Subject: Re: gurus redux Message-ID:
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Jan wrote...... >>The
>>highest possible enlightenment means the end of incarnation - there is no >>more wish to
>>reincarnate. >>By becoming an immortal, you contribute the highest possible
>>boon to sentient creatures - no more can be done.
Rick wrote..... >What exactly is the boon to sentient
>beings when >one chooses not to reincarnate?
Jan wrote.....
>As a Buddha, anyone can draw >strength/inspiration/support from you, even after you have left your body.
>Because of the "spiritual radiation" a Buddha can convince even without >words but as a Bodhisattva you have to convince by words and exemplary
>behavior.
Sure, in the case of the Buddha, or a Buddha, but to be of the magnitude of a Buddha it would seem that one would first have to be a Bodhisattva, as Jan said....
>But without the Bodhisatva >vow, one will never become a Buddha.
The Buddha reached out to other beings for many years offering them liberation, and his "spiritual radiation" is felt to this day. Much of this he did through words and
exemplary behavior. Those who attain liberation on the Hinayana path are often monks and/or solitary practitioners. When they attain liberation their example, their
words are not known to other sentient beings, and it is not passed down through the generations. Being concerned with liberation of their individual selves, instead of the liberation of all sentient beings, once they attain liberation they do not come
back as Bodhisattvas. (i suspect there are many exceptions to this, and that there are those on the Hinayana path who have become Bodhisattvas) What i am wondering is what is the boon to all sentient beings when an individual attains
liberation and does not come back as a Bodhisattva.
Jan wrote.... >the mind has holographic properties. Even the tiniest part possesses the
>properties of the whole
Yes the mind has holographic properties, but it goes further than that. The whole can be considered to be found in every part.......every part in the whole......so when an individual attains liberation, liberating that part......rejoining that drop with its source.....does this increase the light, the vibration level, of every other part? every
other sentient being? even if on a subtle, microscopic level? Does this individual liberation, even if unknown to others, resonate through the entire universe of being?
Is this how it is a benefit to every sentient being?
Jan wrote..... >the
>experience of duality ( the idea/perception of "I" and "you", "me" and >"others") will have disappeared
Yes, individual liberation.........in-divide-dual (liberation from)
Harsha wrote....
>The Compassionate Harsha smiles: As long as one is attached to any vows one >will >never become a Buddha. (Please don't beat me!:-).
:) don't know about never......if one can contemplate the lack of inherent existence
of both oneself (yes, who is it who is contemplating?) and the vows, or whatever, then what is the harm of attachment?
> Jan: Hmmmm.... Attached to vows? The vow is made with the same > detachment .....
> > Harsha: If there is already detachment, then there is nothing to
> propel one to take a vow. For example, let us say I am indifferent to > Chocolate. Would I now stand in front of my favorite Deity and say "I
> swear by God, I shall eat Chocolate no more!" Do you see the logic?
Logic has no inherent existence. Once this is clear, one can eat chocolate, or make vows with attachment, for there is nothing that attaches, and nothing to be attached to.
Debora wrote....
>Bodhisattvas on the >3 highest bhumi levels are of the caliber of Avolokiteshvara, Arya Tara,
>etc. Some of them decide not leave samsara so they can be a resource to >others. They emenate amoung us all the time. They are fully enlightened,
>but until every other being is freed from samsara, they arent going >anywhere.
Yes, once liberation is attained and one is reunited with its source, the all, which is
already here, was here all along......and will continue to be here as long as there is a samsara......and samsara will continue to exist until all sentient beings have been liberated.
Jan wrote.....
>Can you explain how in a fully enlightened one there still >is room for desires
>like helping others and taking rebirth?
How did all this come about? In the beginning there was only the fully enlightened one.......could desire? love? arise from the fully enlightened one? must it have an other? an object? Still there is only the fully enlightened one. So then what is all this?
David wrote....
>With regard to the fully Enlightened One there are no others...
Debora wrote... >So if a person without ego or attachment is helping others, they are a
>bodhisattva. Its that simple imo. Can you help without desire?
Desire can be a useful tool if the emptiness of oneself and the desired is indistinguishable and united with great bliss.
Just kidding. Rick
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:29:57 -0500 From: Antoine
To: Gloria Lee CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: malfunctions Message-ID:
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Gloria Lee wrote:
> This is 4 cars in 30 years..and like I said the 3rd one I could
> still be running, but my mom needed it. I can't even keep track of all > the cars my husbands have been thru..let alone the number of repairs
> needed. What sort of yin/yang is this??
I just love this thread :-)
Maybe, if they where more "women" making cars and loving them, from the extraction of metal from the earth to mecanician for the reparation, cars
would last longer than our bodies...
Love Antoine
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:39:33 EST From: Harsha1MTM
To: janbarenATnospaminfase.es, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Re: kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #222
Message-ID:
In a message dated 98-03-23 21:25:42 EST, janbarenATnospaminfase.es writes:
< What has always amazed me is that only Buddhism offers this variety of full enlightenments - to me it defies logic
whereas Buddhism is said to be open to logic. >>
Harsha (trying to suppress laughter): But they say variety is the spice of life. In any case what is wrong with a little flexibility especially with
regards to enlightenment? And what does logic have to do with anything anyway! Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:51:50 -0000
From: "Jan Barendrecht" To:
Subject: Re: God of Chocolate-Enlightenment-Vows Message-ID:
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> >
>Jan Barendrecht wrote: >
>> Jan: Hmmmm.... Attached to vows? The vow is made with the same >> detachment .....
>> >> Harsha: If there is already detachment, then there is nothing to
>> propel one to take a vow. For example, let us say I am indifferent to >> Chocolate. Would I now stand in front of my favorite Deity and say "I
>> swear by God, I shall eat Chocolate no more!" Do you see the logic? >>
It is obvious that someone taking the Bodhisattva vow is NOT detached so the
‘if´ is invalid. In my native language indifference can have a very negative meaning. If a child is indifferent to chocolate and shows it
clearly, it is seen as rather impolite. If the same child is detached, it accepts the chocolate like all the other children and simply eats it without
caring a ATnospam#!!* for the taste. As someone who considers the practical side of things first, your swearing to God, not to eat chocolate anymore, implies an
invitation to rudeness when it comes to accepting an offer made by poor people in a third world country who would offer a piece of chocolate.
Someone who is indifferent to chocolate would not make any statement about chocolate because that is what indifference is about - not caring aATnospam#!!* for
chocolate itself and everything that has to do with chocolate. Being indifferent to chocolate and despite of that involving oneself in swearing
about its use etc. is contradictory. It only would show you care enough about chocolate to start swearing about its use, right? You don´t become
detached overnight - it takes a long practice. Indifference doesn´t need practice - it shows very clearly in many from birth on. IMHO, there is a
vast difference. The quality of detachment is sattva, of indifference is tamas.
Jan
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 03:44:54 -0000 From: "Jan Barendrecht"
To: Subject: Re: Unresolved side-effect
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Gloria Lee wrote at date: Tuesday, March 24, 1998 7:01 PM
>Dear Jan, >Recently read Wayne Dyers "Your Sacred Self" and he spoke of doing this
>too, as in just staring at the back of people he was able to get them to >notice and turn around..the exact mechanism seems scientifically
>unexplainable to me, but any focus of attention seems to be perceivable >by most people. Have you tried this lately?? Dyer also was staring at
>the backs..of strangers passing by on a path, who would not have seen >him readily. Would make an interesting experiment.
Dear Gloria,
Maybe there was a difference. I could clearly feel ‘energy-beams´ from the eyes. By staring at people, nothing happened. Only when I made a conscious effort to throw a glance on someone, it happened. Because the link was made by the association with the energy-beams, I never tried it again. Anurag suggested a build-up of electricity; it is quite possible. The only explanation that I can think of is that prana isn´t just purely psychical or imaginative; it could be the ‘precursor´ of energy as we know it. If this is true, it would account for the easy transformation into all known kinds of energy, often observed by all with an active K.. A phenomenon I could observe also was a sudden build up of static electricity (no friction by movement of body or air) and scientifically this is too crazy for words: charges must be balanced. But I´ll take your suggestion and try if it still works. As the most frequently used cloths here are beachwear and T-shirt, the energy can penetrate easily.
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:59:50 -0000 From: "Jan Barendrecht"
To: Subject: Re: Unresolved side-effect
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Anurag Goel wrote at Date: Tuesday,
March 24, 1998 5:37 PM
> >Hi jan,
> I remember that I have read somewhere that once a rishi > burnt the person alive to ashes with the rays that came from
> there eyes. May be something regarding this can be found in > scriptures. Also the Lord Shiva burnt Kamadeva to ashes from the
> rays which emmanted from his third eye. >love,
>anurag >
This is a great help Anurag. It reminds me once more to be careful with
these strange things. Thank you.
Jan Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:05:08 -0500
From: David Bozzi To: Kundalini
Subject: Re: hello/intro Message-ID:
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melintonATnospamalison.sbc.edu wrote:
> As I grew older I would feel energy flowing around in my body regularly and
less > intense than the dream sessions of being loved by something/someone.
(snip)
> It was a separate force or
> entity and it was demanding my attention.Demanding your attention? Definitely.
A force separate from you? Not so. You are larger than anything you can imagine.
David
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