1998/03/21 14:21
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #213
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 213
Today's Topics: Re: Personal Genius [ "Jan Barendrecht" ]
Miracles?? [ "Gloria Lee" ] Re: Personal Genius [ "Gloria Lee" ]
Re: AutoPost from Kundalini Resource [ Jerry Katz ] Re: Gurus and Professors [ Anurag Goel ]
Re: Personal Genius [ Dan Margolis ] Re: Gurus and Professors [ Danijel Turina ]
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:10:15 -0000 From: "Jan Barendrecht"
To: Subject: Re: Personal Genius
Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01BD54CA.B0A87940"
The only way to study the effects of K. is to use identical twins. If one individual is initiated in K. yoga and the other individual isn´t, it will become clear what differences will be caused by K. Applying brain-scans will reveal a lot about the role of the brain and its (eventual) relation with K. Even less scientific methods like aura photography could be meaningful also. Even if an identical twin is separated, the individuals are showing a very similar development, so it would give conclusive evidence wether or not K. brings out (some extent of) the genius.
Now the speculative part. A frequent discussion is: "What comes first, enlightenment or K.?" My explanation (speculation...) is: there is no enlightenment without K. A remarkable feat of the "spontaneously enlightened ones" is, that invariably, all realize full enlightenment. What is more, these individuals never seem to have been subjected to the ordeals that "normal individuals" experience with K.: the spontaneously enlightened ones hardly experience any problems. Often they even possess little or no theoretical knowledge about spiritual life. The only valid conclusion for all these facts is, these rare individuals are in possession of a system (the total of the various bodies etc.) that provides far less "resistance" to K. than the system of an average individual. Because of this "low resistance" to K., they don´t experience the initial stages of K. awakening/unfolding and claim instant enlightenment. Again because of this "low resistance", they proceed with lightning speed and attain full enlightenment in a living body. The lightning speed of development also is an effective guarantee for staying aloof from siddhis: there is no opportunity left for engagement in them so the temptation simply doesn´t exist. So, where is the connection with genius? All masters (Patanjali etc.) explicitly warn against using siddhis: it means the end of spiritual progress. Siddhis are not just paranormal or other ESP related feats: rightly, engaging to the extreme in music, painting or science etc. with the aid of K. is considered to be abuse of K. or siddhi. The expression "engaging to the extreme" has to be evaluated. Anyone with active K. is very conscious of it. With sufficient introspection, it is easy to find out the consciousness of K. is permanent - it exists even in dreams. The expression "engaging to the extreme" means, instead of K. one is conscious of the siddhi only. Shree Purohit Swami has given some examples; I quoted them in one of my posts. Possessing a system with a low resistance to K., the individual isn´t aware of K. in its initial stages. Then, if this individual discovers an existing talent (with the aid of parents / educators), engages in it, likes what (s)he is doing, engages more, is being praised for her/his skills, soon K. will be diverted entirely to the talent - according to Patanjali etc., a siddhi that will halt spiritual progress. Because the individual belongs to the type "low resistance to K.", a huge amount of (creative) energy will be unleashed - a real genius. In the East, with its rich spiritual culture, an individual with a system, having a low resistance for K., will develop into a spiritual genius (because of realizing full enlightenment). In the West, this is extremely rare or even non-existent, but in the West, without a spiritual culture, such an individual will develop into an artist, engineer or scientist with true genius. This again, was (still is) rather rare in the East.
-- Just some speculation –-
Jan
Attachment Converted: "C:\SLIP\EUDORA\kunda167" Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 18:53:17 +0530 (IST)
From: Anurag Goel To: Gloria Lee
Cc: hlutharATnospambryant.edu, lobsterATnospamclara.net, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: God As Perfection-God as Perfect Awareness Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi Glo, If it's perception then also something is imperfect.
Love, anurag
> >
> >Glo Lee knowing I ought to know better than to say anything..but: >
> Difficult as this may be to articulate in mere words...somehow the > Perfection IS realized through A Seeming Imperfection, which is
> actually perfect; its just our perception (of IT) may be imperfect. Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:04:27 +0530 (IST)
From: Anurag Goel To: Roberto Gonzales del Valle
Cc: keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: RE: Discovering the reptile within Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Roberto Gonzales del Valle wrote: >
> >> I tend to think that kundalini integrates and amplifies the brain > >function.
> >> If there is genius in there then it has more energy to come out - but > if
> >> there is no genius in there then it just means more of whatever is in > >there
> >> comes out.
How will one explain KALIDAS then.
Love,
anurag Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:12:43
From: Jeanne Garner To: "Jan Barendrecht" ,
Subject: Re: Gurus and Professors Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:10 AM 3/21/98 -0000, Jan Barendrecht wrote:
>Obviously, my assumption of "Osho" possessing a professorship in philosophy >to be common knowledge was wrong; this man was rather controversial to say
>the least and I was referring to him, because, interestingly enough, there >still are persons claiming to have benefited from him. My definition of a
>guru is very simple: someone who can teach in silence. As the majority of >seekers is impressed by a clever use of words / rituals, "Osho" had an easy
>job, becoming popular especially among intellectuals. Yet I remain convinced >that the "Osho effect" can be repeated any time - some people never learn.
Be careful of judgments. What's so "interesting" about people claiming to
have benefited from Osho and other gurus? Maybe they claim so because it is true. One person's guru is another's stumbling block. It all boils
down to one person assisting another (or more) to remember who they are. It isn't so much teaching, as it is sparking that memory. Not every "guru"
is conscious of the work they do, but they do it just the same as they walk through what might seem like an ordinary life, illuminating others as they
go. Some proclaimed, and self-proclaimed gurus reach people in spite of themselves; others fit the traditional notion of guru. One of them will
probably be the right guru for someone.
For that matter, there have been several people right here on this list that I'd call inadvertent gurus for me. Just reading certain posts from
these folks unlocked all sorts of doors to unthought-of possibilities. Shaktizap, too, on occasion.
By saying a guru "has" to fit a certain mold, to meet only some particular
qualifications, puts limitations on how we can grow spiritually. Maybe Osho doesn't appeal to you; fine--don't read his books or follow his
teachings. Follow someone who does "speak to you." But don't discount the experiences of those who have experienced growth through Osho--or, for that
matter, through listening to discourses of sidewalk philosophers, or messages on the internet.
Jeanne ==-* My stars!
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 08:25:08 PST From: "Gloria Lee"
To: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Miracles??
Message-ID:
For janpa...and her poem..
From: "Touching Peace" by Thich Nhat Hanh
Our true home is in the present moment. To live in the present moment is a miracle. The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to
walk on the green Earth in the present moment, to appreciate the peace and beauty that are available now. Peace is all around us-in the world
and in nature-and within us -in our bodies and our spirits. Once we learn to touch this peace,we will be healed and transformed. It is
not a matter of faith; it is a matter of practice. We need only to find ways to bring our body and mind back to the present moment so we can
touch what is refreshing, healing, and wondrous.
Every day we touch what is wrong, and as a result, we are becomingless and less healthy. That is why we have to learn to practice
touching what is not wrong-inside us and around us. When we get in touch with our eyes, our heart, our liver, our breathing..and really enjoy
them, we see that the conditions for peace and happiness are already present. When we walk mindfully and touch the Earth with our feet, when
we drink tea with friends and touch the tea and our friendship, we get healed, and we can bring this healing to society, The more we may have
suffered in the past, the stronger a healer we can become. We can learn to transform our suffering into the kind of insight that will help our
friends and society.
We do not have to die to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In fact we have to be fully alive. When we take one conscious breath, aware of our eyes,
our heart, our liver, and our non-toothache, we are transported to Paradise right away. Peace is available. We have only to touch it. When
we are truly alive, we can see that the tree is part of Heaven, and we are also part of Heaven. The whole universe is conspiring to reveal this
to us, but we are so out of touch that we invest our resources in cutting down the trees. If we want to enter heaven on Earth, we need
only one conscious step and one conscious breath. When we touch peace, everything becomes real. We become ourselves, fully alive in the present
moment, and the tree, our child, and everything else reveal themselves to us in their full splendor.
"The miracle is to walk on Earth." This statement was made by Zen Master Lin Chi. The moracle is not to walk on thin air or water, but to
walk on Earth. The Earth is so beautiful. We are beautiful also. We can allow ourselves to walk mindfully, touching the Earth, our
wonderful mother, with each step.
______________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 09:22:44 PST From: "Gloria Lee"
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com, janbarenATnospaminfase.es Subject: Re: Personal Genius
Message-ID:
>Jan wrote:
>The only way to study the effects of K. is to use identical twins. If <SNIP> Jan, we have been thru this already once ..check the archives
>There was an extensive discussion of scientific proof and testing several months ago..
>Now the speculative part. A frequent discussion is: "What comes first,
= >enlightenment or K.?" My explanation (speculation...) is: there is no =
>enlightenment without K. A remarkable feat of the "spontaneously = >enlightened ones" is, that invariably, all realize full enlightenment.
=
>W<BIG SNIP> (Patanjali etc.) explicitly = >warn against using siddhis: it means the end of spiritual progress. =
>Siddhis are not just paranormal or other ESP related feats: rightly, = >engaging to the extreme in music, painting or science etc. with the aid
= >of K. is considered to be abuse of K. or siddhi.
HUH??? The "proper use" of K forbids engaging in the arts?? Since when??? First you seem to be implying that only some genius level is
even proper proof that K has manifested.. then you say don't USE it?? Why on earth do you single out only certain activities as being
properly spiritual?? Do you not appreciate when a spiritual person creates spiritual music?? Why exclude any of our normal pursuits in life
and say they are a misuse?? Are we to stop living a normal life completely?? This obviously bothers me.. as does all the crap about
genius level IQ's that was said before.. I, personally, have heard some very profound "truths" spoken by the so-called mentally retarded.
There are many "spontaneously awakened* or what appear to me as very spiritual people who would never need to verbalize that they had
attained any special state of mind..they just live it. Why do you want to see or frame the concept of enlightenment so
narrowly that it becomes rare and exclusive?? Granted, there may be few Buddha's and Gurus...but why exclude most of the human race ??
<SNIP>> I joined this list to find out how others were managing.. and to learn
from them..and while we may all be somewhat wierd in our own special way..I do not see much evidence that we have left the human race behind
to become some exclusive club of the specially enlightened. What is so wrong about having the effects of K help you to do your ordinary job
better?? Or to write or paint or create because you feel inspired or energized by K-fire??
I am sorry to be so upset with your line of thinking here..perhaps its not all that clear to me.. and maybe you are NOT implying all this, so
please keep explaining..ok?? If you have answers for the questions I raise here, pray tell.
Puzzled and stubbornly ornery,
Glo Lee Glo Lee
______________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:59:45 -0800
From: Jerry Katz To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, annfisherATnospamstic.net, david.bozziATnospamsnet.net,
rhk47f2ATnospamwebtv.net Subject: Re: AutoPost from Kundalini Resource Center
Message-ID:
David Bozzi wrote: >
> Robert h. Krueger wrote: >
> > Its been written , That he who overcomes will be given a white stone, > > with a name upon it,only he will know. Does any one out there know that name?
> > Out there?
> No.
Jerry writes:
Hi Robert,
I do not claim To Know, but I have heard that the white stone says upon it, I AM.
The records say it could also be a flat white stone-like object that is
held in hand and named Wafer of Existence. Some call it Transition Stone, transitional between I AM and Enlightenment.
I imagine it may be the case that there are I AM and Enlightenment
people who have never received these stones as such.
So perhaps it is a diversion to look too much upon the stone. It is taught that the challenge, the task, is to attend to I AM, which would
be appropriate if that is what is written upon the white stone.
Best to you,
Jerry Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:13:55 +0530 (IST)
From: Anurag Goel To: Jeanne Garner
Cc: Jan Barendrecht , kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Re: Gurus and Professors
Message-Id:
Hi jeanne,
What is Shaktizap? I think it is Shaktipat that you are referring to.
love,
anurag Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:17:21 EST
From: Harsha1MTM To: janbarenATnospaminfase.es, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Past Lives-Ramana Maharshi Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
In a message dated 98-03-20 17:59:07 EST, janbarenATnospaminfase.es writes:
< Modern Self-realized ones like
Ramana Maharishi refused to discuss the topic of past lives altogether, stating it to be of no help in the present situation.
>>
Harsha: Jan, you are right that Ramana Maharshi generally refused to discuss past lives in the context of Self-Realization. He did not think the knowledge
of past lives or discussion of it is useful for Recognizing the Self. However, it is not accurate to say that he refused to discuss the topic of past lives
altogether. He indeed did so in many recorded conversations. The Great Sage always spoke about things in their proper context taking the nature of the
situation and the questioner into account. His recorded conversations are widely available. My favorite is "Talks with Ramana Maharshi" recorded between
1935-1939. I believe that book itself can serve as somone's Guru and lead to Self-Realization! The True Guru is Always the Self that is the Heart of All.
Words of Realized Saints have the power to reveal That Eternal Silence which has Always been Here Whose Nature is Self-Existent.
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:29:47 -0800 From: Dan Margolis
To: Gloria Lee CC: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com, janbarenATnospaminfase.es
Subject: Re: Personal Genius Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >of K. is considered to be abuse of K. or siddhi.
> > HUH??? The "proper use" of K forbids engaging in the arts?? Since > >when??? First you seem to be implying that only some genius level is
> >even proper proof that K has manifested.. then you say don't USE it?? > > Why on earth do you single out only certain activities as being
> >properly spiritual?? Do you not appreciate when a spiritual person > >creates spiritual music?? Why exclude any of our normal pursuits in life
> >and say they are a misuse?? Are we to stop living a normal life > >completely?? This obviously bothers me.. as does all the crap about
> >genius level IQ's that was said before.. I, personally, have heard some > >very profound "truths" spoken by the so-called mentally retarded.
> >There are many "spontaneously awakened* or what appear to me as very > >spiritual people who would never need to verbalize that they had
> >attained any special state of mind..they just live it.
I tend to agree with Gloria here. I've always had a 'genius' level IQ. However, I had no manifestation of K until later in life. Before I turned
to spiritual pursuits I still did works that could be considered genius. Now, actually I find less inclination to pursue these works. Intellectual
pursuits have always left me cold, I was just good at them. I enjoy now ordinary life. I live in the moment and don't worry about those things.
I think the comment on the not using Siddhi's could be taken differently.
Don't pursue these things. Don't narrow your focus. Continue your quest for the eternal despite the psychic side-effects of your practice.
> > Why do you want to see or frame the concept of enlightenment so
> >narrowly that it becomes rare and exclusive?? Granted, there may be few > >Buddha's and Gurus...but why exclude most of the human race ??
> <SNIP>>
I do think that enlightenment is not rare and exclusive, but very rare and elusive. An awakened person is not enlightened.
> >I joined this list to find out how others were managing.. and to learn
> >from them..and while we may all be somewhat wierd in our own special > >way..I do not see much evidence that we have left the human race behind
> >to become some exclusive club of the specially enlightened. What is so > >wrong about having the effects of K help you to do your ordinary job
> >better?? Or to write or paint or create because you feel inspired or > >energized by K-fire??
Again, I agree entirely. The most upsetting thing I've discovered about
this list is this sense of 'specialness.' People seem to spend more time discussing the obtuse effects of k-energy than discussing living an ordinary
life. I've only recently joined this list so I don't know if this is the general trend or the specific. I joined this list because of side-effects
in my practice that weren't explained by the practice I was pursuing, not to concentrate on my own 'specialness' or the psychic gifts and spells
available.
Dan M.
Dan M. Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:39:33 EST
From: MMeyers541 To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: What happened? Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Hi All,
Well, I got through 17 days of email (after being out of town March 1-19).
And then (and then), there was no more email for me!
I really wanted to catch up on March 18-20. Do you think there's a limit as to how much email one can receive, and that my AOL address got overloaded? Is
it possible that 3 days' worth of email is "imprisoned" on the Internet somewhere, in search of a landing spot at my email address? [I did delete
almost all of the k-list email after reading it, in hopes of freeing up space.]
Thx--Michele
(Desperately Seeking Email) P.S. Just rec'd 2 emails dated 3/21, but still curious as to what happened
3/18-20. Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:09:05 +0100
From: Danijel Turina To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Gurus and Professors Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Anurag! :)
At 23:13 1998.03.21 +0530, you wrote: >Hi jeanne,
> What is Shaktizap? I think it is Shaktipat that you are > referring to.
It is like, when you read someone's words or look in the eyes, and Shakti
zaps you, like, having sex on 220 volts. :)
----- E-mail : sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:29:21 -0500
From: amckeonATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Mantras that trigger chakra activity Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Glo Lee wrote:
>HEART CHAKRA: Location - the upper chest and thorax; size - the entire chest >>cavity going from shoulder to shoulder.....
I found this information very useful and interesting. This type of thing
that gives basic symbols and descriptions is better absorbed by me than those long "million propensity" treatises that just don't sink in.
Thanks for sharing it with the list. I will ask for the Oracle Card Pack at
the bookstore. You don't happen to have the ISBN number do you?
On a general note, I am really liking the gestalt of the list lately. The return of Lobster and the exiting of some other members has resulted in a
certain mix that really feels "right" to me at the moment.
Here comes the Sun! amckeon
-------------------- "Yeah, cause you know you wake up in the morning, and your hair's all over
the place? Well that's because, in the middle of the night, squirrels break into your room, with combs and moose, and the moose stand guard whilst the
squirrels comb your hair into weird shapes, then they all run off, laughing that moose means two things, and can be used in a joke format."
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:36:37 -0500 From: amckeonATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Some needed levity - more shit
Message-ID:
Danijel Turina wrote:
>Kunalinism: This shit will get us enlightened.
Good one. You are one wild and wacky guy.
amckeon
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:42:02 +0100 From: Gloria Greco
To: MMeyers541 CC: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: What happened? Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
MMeyers541 wrote:
> >
> > Thx--Michele
> (Desperately Seeking Email) > P.S. Just rec'd 2 emails dated 3/21, but still curious as to what happened
> 3/18-20.
Gg Maybe slow times.
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/ &
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/ Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:04:50 EST From: Druout
To: umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Cc: PEGLUMPKINATnospamaol.com, keutzerATnospameccs.berkeley.edu, Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com,
rgvgATnospamhotmail.com, acarreATnospamconcentric.net, lobsterATnospamclara.net, david.bozziATnospamsnet.net, lodpressATnospamintercomm.com, margolisATnospamtransbay.net
Subject: Re: Personal Genius Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Dear Jerry and list,
Interesting question. Personally I haven't noticed any change in my mental
abilities except perhaps I tend to be less detail oriented, and my mind is often not altogether together, if you know what I mean!
The only other change is occasionally, now, aphorisms pop into my head. Such
as last night: "I'm beginning to remember the laughter of Being."
I'd be curious to learn how other list members have changed.
Love, Hillary
DISCLAIMER!
Home | Archive Index | Search the archives | Subscribe
K. List FAQ | Kundalini FAQs | Signs and Symptoms | Awakening Experiences | K. list Polls | Member Essays | Meditations | List Topics | Art Gallery | Cybrary | Sitemap | Email the moderators.
symbol.