1998/03/05 13:28
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #172
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 172
Today's Topics: Re: test pattern [ Harsh Luthar ]
RE: Enlightenment - Gurus [ "Peter Sutphen" ] Re: Enlightenment & Gurus [ Harsh Luthar ]
LOVE [ "Dave Estes" ] cross posting [ "Sharon Webb" ]
Danijel and perfection [ Mary Ezzell ] HUMOUR: List Humor [ "Debora A. Orf" ]
Re: RE: Enlightenment - Gurus [ Afperry ] Re: cross posting [ Gloria Greco
To: umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca CC: Harsha1MTM , kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: test pattern Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jerry Katz wrote:
> Harsha: You've got me kind of burned out with all your Ramana style
> dialogue work. It's reached the point of dimishing returns. It is an > effective method, tremendously effective, but only as an adjunct to
> silence. Silence, a glance, a touch, a nod; then the oral questioning > technique after all that. The Internet (as we use it) allows only for
> the written questioning technique, which is the very last resort, and I > am more guilty than anyone of using the words too much.
Harsha writes: Fine Jerry fine. Be well and be cheerful.
>
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 98 17:06:43 UT From: "Peter Sutphen"
To: "Charles Attfield" , "Kundalini Mailing List"
Subject: RE: Enlightenment - Gurus
Message-Id:
Dear Friends, I wanted to comment about the Guru discussion we have been having over the
past few days. It really has been quite nice. Most Guru discussions are filled with such ridiculous polemics and vindictive from people ripped-off or
disappointed with an experience with an alleged or a "real" Guru (what ever that means!) that nothing can be gained from the discussion. As I have
mentioned in my posts, my experiences have mostly been with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. What an amazing man he is! Recently I have had contact with his
disciple, but now functioning independently, Shri Shri Ravi Shankar or Pundit-ji. He is much more of a traditional Guru. He teaches multiple
techniques, but he emphasizes the personal relationship with him much more. But there is no demand from his side. He leaves it up to you.
Someone mentioned in a post that most of the fully realized Gurus are in the
past. I would say that is incorrect. They are hiding in plain sight all around us. It is just that our minds demand they come to us in a certain
form. That they soothe us and make us feel happy all the time. Enlightenment rips the mind to shreds! It steps outside of all categories of the mind and
destroys the ego. Everything is the same, but there is no individuality left. Of course this can not be comprehended by the mind. Prior to enlightenment
we comprehend enlightenment in terms of "experiences" that "we" will have: kundalini, lights, subtle body experiences, angels, devas, bliss, all kinds of
subtle nonsense. It is nonsense because it is just another "experience" that entertains the self. It comes and goes. Who cares! Like a good movie.
Whoopee!!!
Enlightenment is the cessation of identification with the object of experience. Then the Self is realized by the Self and the mind goes "pop"!
No more "I" to be found.
Well enough soapboxing for today -Peter
----------
From: Charles Attfield Sent: Thursday, March 05, 1998 5:31 AM
To: Kundalini Mailing List Subject: Re: Enlightenment - Gurus
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_01FA_01BD4864.D68C72A0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Group=20
I just thought I'd throw my two pennyworth into discussion on Gurus and = enlightenement.
To me a guru is only as good as the spiritual growth people gain from =
being in his/her presence. It has been stated that "By their fruits ye = shall know them." If one needs to look to an outer form for one's own =
divinity then great. If not then don't. It's whatever is suitable for = one's own evolution that's important. Personally, when I look to an =
enlightened guru I see a relection of my own divinity and usually he/she = acts in a manner which reflects back to me what I need to see and in =
accordance with the level that I'm at.
As far as evolution is concerned I see that as an evolution of = consciousness. Our consciousness evolves until ultimately it becomes the =
universal consciousness, which it has always been anyway - we just, for = some reason seem temporarily unable to perceive it that way.
So who is your Guru? I suppose if you look to your husband or wife with =
complete and utter devotion, acknowledging their divinity and treating = them with selfless respect, then they can be your guru. However, that =
seems a tall order so it would seem more sensible to me that if someone = wants to look to a guru for guidance and help it would be wise to make =
sure that that person is totally Self-realised without any trace of ego. = If the guru has ego then their teachings will be tainted.
In Light and Love
Chas
------=_NextPart_000_01FA_01BD4864.D68C72A0 Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Group
I just thought I'd throw my two =
pennyworth into=20 discussion on Gurus and enlightenement.
To me a guru is only as good as the =
spiritual=20 growth people gain from being in his/her presence. It has been stated =
that=20 "By their fruits ye shall know them." If one needs to look to =
an outer=20 form for one's own divinity then great. If not then don't. It's whatever =
is=20 suitable for one's own evolution that's important. Personally, when I =
look to an=20 enlightened guru I see a relection of my own divinity and usually he/she =
acts in=20 a manner which reflects back to me what I need to see and in accordance =
with the=20 level that I'm at.
As far as evolution is concerned I =
see that as=20 an evolution of consciousness. Our consciousness evolves until =
ultimately it=20 becomes the universal consciousness, which it has always been anyway - =
we just,=20 for some reason seem temporarily unable to perceive it that =
way.
So who is your Guru? I suppose if you look to your = husband or=20
wife with complete and utter devotion, acknowledging their divinity and = treating=20
them with selfless respect, then they can be your guru. However, that = seems a=20
tall order so it would seem more sensible to me that if someone wants to = look to=20
a guru for guidance and help it would be wise to make sure that that = person is=20
totally Self-realised without any trace of ego. If the guru has ego then = their=20
teachings will be tainted.
In Light and Love
Chas
------=_NextPart_000_01FA_01BD4864.D68C72A0--
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0500 From: Antoine
To: Ann Morrison Fisher CC: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Enlightenment & Gurus Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Ann Morrison Fisher wrote:
> Antoine writes:
> > >The vow of Boddhisatva, according to me, is choosing between returning to
> >Nirvana or staying in the consciousness of the personal God >
> Such a choice is not necessary. You can go into Nirvana and return to help > others.
True. But you can choose to look only at Nirvana (what as no form, the bornless
One) or come back to help others no?
> > until all the > >parts and the ALL are conscious as One of being the mirror of Nirvana.
> > Does this make any sense?
> > until all the parts [of 1] and the ALL [1] are conscious as One [1] of
> being the mirror of Nirvana [1].
Concepts are limiting... But they sometimes can help us to point at things. I understand your point, and would like to go deeper in this.
What do you do about the number 0?
0 + 1 = 1
0 x 1 = 0
until all the parts [all the numbers, i.e 1,2,3,5... ] and the ALL [the infinite] are conscious as One [1] of
being the mirror of Nirvana [0]. Would turn out in my langage if i use numbers.
Thank you for helping my expression better and make my mind clearer.
Antoine --
"Just because suffering exists, you don't have to elevate it by putting a robe of suffering. Put on a robe of joy so you can uplift others." --- Swami
Muktananda. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:22:26 -0500
From: Harsh Luthar To: Ann Morrison Fisher
CC: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Re: Enlightenment & Gurus
Message-ID:
Ann Morrison Fisher wrote:
> The Gita says (as near as my memory serves): >
> "When the river is overflowing, the reservoir is superfluous. > "To the Seer, the Vedas [scriptures] are superfluous."
>
Harsha: Beautiful, Beautiful and Beautiful. Glad to have the Wise Ann back with us!
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 09:55:14 PST From: "Dave Estes"
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: LOVE
Message-ID:
Unconditional Love is the fabric of the Universe! Through what we call
Love...all things exist!
:-) Dave
______________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 09:45:09 +0100 From: Gloria Greco
To: Jeanne Garner CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Why so many crossposts? Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jeanne Garner wrote:
Hi Jeanne,
Gloria here, I can take the posts off so that it doesn't go to the k list. If this is something everyone feels just tell Mystress and she
will tell me. That way I won't have hundreds of posts to go through. That is not a problem, I have felt that some of these things apply to
both. But it can be handled by me by just stopping it. Gloria >
> > So I plead with kundalini list members and the List Mystress: Please, can't
> we stick to the mailing list at hand??
Mystress, let me know if you want me to do this, ok? GG >
> Jeanne > ==-* My stars!
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/ &
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/ Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:26:22 -0800 From: anandajyoti
To: "'kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com'" Subject: Is Enlightenment Knowledge or vice versa?
Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EA18688B4E15B851FCD0C04A"
If Knowing what or who you are be Enlightenment , consider the
following:
PREMISE: The Economics of Science dictate that engineers and scientists
will never make as much money as business executives. Now a rigorous mathematical proof that explains why this is True:
POSTULATE #1: Knowledge is Power.
POSTULATE #2: Time is Money.
PROOF: As every engineer knows:
1) Work = Power x Time
2) Since Knowledge = Power, and Time = Money, we have:
3) Work = Knowledge x Money
4) Solving for Money, we get: Money =Work/Knowledge Thus, as Knowledge approaches zero, Money approaches infinity regardless
of the Work done.
CONCLUSION: The Less you Know, the more you Make. (NOTE: It has
been speculated that the reason why Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard's math program was because he stumbled upon this proof as an
undergraduate.)
An interesting concept..
Anandajyoti
Attachment Converted: "C:\SLIP\EUDORA\kunda143" Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:03:51 -0500
From: tgxxxATnospamjuno.com (tg langston) To: jeannegATnospamicon.net
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Why so many crossposts?
Message-ID:
>>>Please, can't>we stick to the mailing list at hand??> > Jeanne <
> >As for me, I appreciate getting the HeartZen posts... choose not to
>subscribe>to both. >Cher >
I agree with Jeanne. If I wanted to see the Heartzen posts, I'd
subscribe there. Well in fact, I was subscribed there, but got tired of seeing all the duplicate kundalini posts.
Wouldn't it be more reasonable for those that like the crossposting to
subscribe to both lists, rather than ask us meanies to unsubscribe here?
xxxtg
* Someday we'll look back on all this and plow right into a parked car *
http://members.aol.com/Teeegeee/tgsplace.html
To: shawebbATnospamyhc.edu, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, Harsha1MTMATnospamaol.com Subject: Re: evidence
Message-ID:
>
>In a message dated 98-03-03 17:20:39 EST, shawebbATnospamyhc.edu writes: >
>< This comment just reminded me of something that I wanted to share. >
> We have a little dog who is not allowed on the bed. We NEVER find her on
> the bed. Never. It's against all the rules. >
> But sometimes we find a little dog-shaped indentation on the pillow. And
> sometimes we find a wet squeaky toy or a bone in the bed. >
> She just doesn't understand evidence. >
> :-) >> >
>Harsha writes: Sharon, that is so funny! And on top of it you are a >professional writer. What a combination!
> >
Glo Lee: When I take my cat to the vet, he feels scared of dogs in the waiting room, so he hides his eyes by burying his head...and the
dogs go POOF!!! Does this confirm your dog's belief that reality requires evidence by visible proof?? Rules require the presence of the
rulemaker? Be glad she is not making long distance phone calls. :)))
______________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:20:49 -0500 From: "Sharon Webb"
To: Subject: cross posting
Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Gloria, you wrote:
>>Gloria here, I can take the posts off so that it doesn't go to the k
list. If this is something everyone feels just tell Mystress and she will tell me. That way I won't have hundreds of posts to go through.>>
This way, the hundreds of posts will go to Mystress instead. :-)
Why not just stop the cross posting, Gloria, and save everybody lots of band width?
Love,
Sharon shawebbATnospamyhc.edu
A new fractal gallery was posted to this site on Jan. 1, '98: http://www.fractalus.com/sharon/
USA Today Hot Site; Cosmic Site of the Night: Cool Central Site of the Day; ENC Digital Dozen; Enchantment Award; ArtSearch Featured Site;
NetTech NeatTech: Best of the Web; Eye Candy, Honorable Mention; Studyweb Featured Site; Lotus Light Award; Wave of the Day featured site
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:31:17 -0800 From: Mary Ezzell
To: Danijel Turina , kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Danijel and perfection
Message-Id:
Hastily...
I haven't been keeping up with teh list much lately, but liked this one.
Didn't Angelique say something like that too? We don't need to fix the
world, it's a perfect chaotic RPG already -- including lots of places for us to have fun working out the details....
Including teh little energies of people wanting to work on/out their own things with whatever energies come up for them ... and wanting little bits
of help maybe which we can have fun giving ... if we give just what they ask for and when and as much as they want, no more!
At 12:20 PM 3/4/98 +0100, Danijel Turina wrote:
>See there is no problem and there will be nothing to
>fix or pray for, because it is perfection and clarity all over. See things >as beauty and you won't have to fix them. See people as enlightened and
>beautiful, not as ugly and pathetic so you could pray for God's help to >them. You place that help in the distant future and you place the ugly
>stuff in the present - and the future never happens, only now happens. So >you create now. That's what I tell my students: never visualize anyone! It
>is astral violence! By visualizing someone you create him, you transform >his astral tissue, his thoughts and feelings, to fit your perceptions.
>Don't ever do that! The thing to do is to call a person, open yourself and >observe. Don't impose, because thoughts are actions here, they are like
>surgical instruments that cut tissue. Don't play with that! >view a: you are beautiful
>view b: you are ugly, but you can be helped, let me help you get beautiful >
>View b creates ugliness, view a actualizes beauty.
Right right right!
Now, what about when I phone a student and she says "Oh, I'm in such bad
shape today" etc etc on and on.... Sort of projects that picture of herself out to me, or drops that load on me, or pulls me under it with her....
I *will not* do the "kick in the pants for your own good" trip. Will *not*
be rude or condescending. Feel like she needs to get rid of some energy by saying this, not to be interrupted (unless she starts to spiral on
down....). And even then, interrupting/invalidating what she wants to say that moment, seems a sort of violence....
>-----
>E-mail : sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr >Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377
I tried this page but it didn't seem to be in English?????
Mary
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:38:52 -0600 (CST) From: "Debora A. Orf"
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: HUMOUR: List Humor
Message-ID:
Being a listowner of another discussion list, i found this a little funny
:)
>"How many mailing list members does it take to change a light bulb" which >discussed the various and sundry stupid things people will do:
> >
> >
> Q: How many list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? > A: 1,331:
> > 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the list that
> the light bulb has been changed. >
> 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and > how the light bulb could have been changed differently.
> > 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.
> > 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing
> light bulbs. >
> 53 to flame the spell checkers >
> 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about > the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this
> mail list. >
> 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. >
> 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please > take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb
> > 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling
> and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. >
> 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all > use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant
> to this mail list. >
> 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is > superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of
> light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands > are faulty.
> > 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different
> light bulbs >
> 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to > post corrected URLs.
> > 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are
> relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to > this list.
> > 33 to summarize all posts to date, then quote them including
> all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." >
> 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because > they cannot handle the light bulb controversy.
> > 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three."
> > 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.
> > 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.
> > 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was
> meant for, leave it here. >
> 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. >
> >
>I, who should have know better, posted a followup of a few bits I thought >were missing from the list
> >
> You forgot a few: >
> 27 to post in HTML because they are using the IE or Netscape > that had it turned on by default and are too clueless to
> look >
> 48 to complain about the HTML posts >
> 27 to post 'sorry I didn't realize it was on' -- in HTML >
> 96 to complain about more HTML and post detailed instructions > on how to change the setting
> > 58 to mumble something about using a web browser to read mail
> > 12 MIME posts with useless colors and bolds saying thanks
> for the help with the HTML mail >
> 1 to post a GIF/JPG of the lightbulb hanging too close to > their digital camera.
> > 1 complaint from the guy using /usr/ucb/Mail who wants to
> know what the *ATnospam&(%$!ATnospam has been going on >
> 58 to complain about the binary post >
> 74 to say they liked the binary and didn't mind it >
> 1 post about how you can MAKE MONEY FAST!!!!! by selling > lightbulbs and this report available for only $5.
> > 1328 to reply to the list with the full spam attached and
> then put 'remove' at the end >
> 3 to flame the other morons for replying to the spammer > and CCing the list
> > 1 from the list admin notifying that the list is looking
> for a bigger server to handle the load >
>There have now been several followups: >
> "How did I get on this list?" >
> "How do I get off this list?" >
> "REMOVE" >
> "REMOVE > UNSUB
> SIGNOFF > REMOVE
> TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST" >
> "unsubribe" [sic] >
> "Morons, you have to send it to the majordomo address" >
> "How am I supposed to know that?" >
>If it wasn't so pitiful, it would be funny. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:44:34 +0100
From: Danijel Turina To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Danijel and perfection Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Mary! :)
At 11:31 1998.03.05 -0800, you wrote: >Hastily...
> >I haven't been keeping up with teh list much lately, but liked this one.
;)
>Didn't Angelique say something like that too?
She probably did. :)
>We don't need to fix the
>world, it's a perfect chaotic RPG already -- including lots of places for >us to have fun working out the details....
Yes... a game known as "making the perfection that became imperfection
perfect, although it is perfect all the time". I love it! :) Well, sometimes it does suck, but makes up for it the next day. :)))
>>view a: you are beautiful >>view b: you are ugly, but you can be helped, let me help you get beautiful
>> >>View b creates ugliness, view a actualizes beauty.
> >
>Right right right! >
>Now, what about when I phone a student and she says "Oh, I'm in such bad >shape today" etc etc on and on.... Sort of projects that picture of
>herself out to me, or drops that load on me, or pulls me under it with her....
> >I *will not* do the "kick in the pants for your own good" trip. Will *not*
>be rude or condescending. Feel like she needs to get rid of some energy by >saying this, not to be interrupted (unless she starts to spiral on
>down....). And even then, interrupting/invalidating what she wants to say >that moment, seems a sort of violence....
Yes, that is the thing to do. Let it flow, observe it as it is. No positive
thoughts, no negative thoughts, just observe. And let yourself flow naturally and do the right thing, whatever it is, and whatever it appears
to be. :) I love it. :) Even at the times I don't understand what the natural flow
is, when it appears to be completely wrong... and it never is. The only times I make mistakes are when I try to correct the natural flow, to make
it fit my perception of what is right. Big mistake. Perceptions deceive. Mind is limited. Reality must be allowed to flow freely, or it becomes an
illusion. I love you.
-----
E-mail : sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:17:38 EST From: Afperry
To: tgxxxATnospamjuno.com, jeannegATnospamicon.net Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Re: Why so many crossposts? Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Yes, I agree with Jeanne too, even if only in the interests of keeping down
the intimidating quantity of mail......... Alan
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:17:32 EST From: Afperry
To: plslalATnospamclassic.msn.com Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: RE: Enlightenment - Gurus Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Dear Peter,
Please soapbox as much as you like, it's a pleasure to read......... And I
agree that there are plenty of God-Realised gurus around still, thank goodness. If you're interested in one such, take a look at:
http://www.globeworks.com/karunamayi/karuna2.htm
Mother Karunamayi will be touring the US/UK between April and June; if you get
the chance, do go and see her. Nothing like TM, I can assure you! I must declare an interest: I'm involved with her UK Foundation, but she really is an
absolute sweetie - not a very good theological assessment, maybe, but I'm sure you get my drift...............:-)
With blessings,
Alan Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:17:21 +0100
From: Gloria Greco To: Sharon Webb
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: cross posting
Message-ID:
Sharon Webb wrote: Ok that is fine. I will ask everyone on the heart list to stop posting
that way. Gloria >
> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 12:21:36 +0100
From: Gloria Greco To: heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: stop including the k list, ok
Message-ID:
Hi everyone both lists..., I am going to stop moving the posts over to the k list, some people
have written not liking it because of to many posts, you know those duplicates we all have... and others have written saying that they like
it to please not stop. But, they can just join our list if they want to participate. This way we won't have negative projections coming at us
and on the k list... they won't get frustrations projected out either. Gloria
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher. Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at: http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
& http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them!
DISCLAIMER!
Home | Archive Index | Search the archives | Subscribe
K. List FAQ | Kundalini FAQs | Signs and Symptoms | Awakening Experiences | K. list Polls | Member Essays | Meditations | List Topics | Art Gallery | Cybrary | Sitemap | Email the moderators.
symbol.