1998/03/05 10:02
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #171
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 171
Today's Topics: RE: HRTZEN: Re:A beginner's experien [ "Peter Sutphen" ]
Re: romantic love [ Ann Morrison Fisher ] Re: HRTZEN: Re:A beginner's experien [ Harsh Luthar ]
unsubscribe [ "Ivo Visic" ] Abducted...in real life [ Jan Curran ]
test pattern [ Jerry Katz ] Re: Ramana Maharshi and Kundalini [ Jerry Katz ]
subscrib me [ yogiartATnospamusa.net ] Re. Enlightenment & Gurus [ "Debora A. Orf" ]
Re: Why so many crossposts? [ Esnshl4me ] Clogging [ John Living ]
detachment [ "Sharon Webb" ] Re: Why so many crossposts? [ jeannegATnospamicon.net (Jeanne Garner) ]
Re: Ramana Maharshi and Kundalini [ Harsh Luthar ] Date: Thu, 5 Mar 98 04:24:03 UT
From: "Peter Sutphen" To: "LarryN3515" , david.bozziATnospamsnet.net,
heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, owner-heartzenATnospamotto.servtech.com
Subject: RE: HRTZEN: Re:A beginner's experience Message-Id:
One question... Why "detach"?
-Peter
---------- From: LarryN3515
Sent: Monday, March 02, 1998 11:24 AM To: david.bozziATnospamsnet.net; owner-heartzenATnospamotto.servtech.com;
heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com; kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: HRTZEN: Re:A beginner's experience
Hi David, Larry here:
You say it perfectly. For many years I tried to "be Spiritual", I knew the right words to say and the feelings behind them, however, one element was
missing: The pure realization that God was in charge and that His Will was to be the governing force and that without this realization and the "fruit" that
comes from it, I could continue to puff smoke in to the air and only convince others that I posessed some mystical secret.
Now, realizing that without sincere focus and intention my spiritual path simply bounces around from experience to experience and produces little fruit.
Now, what remains, is to simply observe and detach while seeking to discover who and what I already am. Thanks for your message.. with love Larry
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 19:24:16 -0800 From: valeriec
To: Harsha1MTM CC: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com
Subject: Re: Celibacy-Serious Humor!-Short but True Story Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Harsha1MTM wrote:
> > Harsha writes: At the age 22, I was training to be a monk. I used to make a
> living > teaching Yoga at a major health club in NYC. Beautiful models and
> actresses wearing revealing work out clothes came there everyday and it > was a challenge to not be distracted. On top of it, my job required me
> to take measurements of the members when they first joined and show them > how to use various machines. In order to remain chaste, I tried not to
> make eye contact with the women and looked at their shoulders or past > them when holding a conversation.
> > One day, a particularly stunning female member joined and was assigned
> to me. After I took the measurements, she requested that I feel her > buttocks ("Tush" as she put it) for firmness. I was stunned. "How will
> you know if I have gotten firmer unless you have something to compare it > to," she said, and insisted that I comply. My supervisor standing next
> to me said, "We have to please our customers!" So with the blood rushing > to my face and neck with embarassment and practically in tears, I did as
> I was told. She was quite firm. >
> After that it became a weekly ritual for her. She insisted at the end of > each week that I determine the extent of her firmness in that area. And
> feeling that this was part of my job duties, I methodically and > carefully did so each week and gave my report to her.
> > Some months went by and one day she did not show up as scheduled. A
> friend, a fellow Yogi, knowing my plight said to me, "You are spared > this week. It must bother you that you have to do this as part of your
> job." I could not resist smiling. "No it does not bother me anymore > David," I said. "I am more concerned about the fact that I have started
> to look forward to it!" And we laughed and laughed and laughed.
v: well!!! then what happened? this story is a cliffbanger!
did you break your vows, fall in love & marry her? did she ever come back? did she drive you 'over the edge' so they had to drag you to
Bellevue in a strait jacket??? this is an example of 'anti-climactic' anecdote!
we should all try to finish the story, & see if somebody can guess; hehehe!
-- "One and eternal is my soul, characterized by intuition and knowledge;
all other states that I undergo are external to me." Samayika
Patha ---
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/7982/index.html Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:29:46 -0600
From: Ann Morrison Fisher To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: romantic love Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hillary (Druout ) wrote:
>This may sound silly, but I have found that love does not always have to be >reciprocated to be meaningful. It is often enough simply to love.
I have found that I need someone(s) to love much more than I need someone
to love me.
Years ago my group was once in communication with a higher source when someone asked: "Why does God need us?" The answer: "Love requires an
object."
Love, Ann
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:30:16 -0600 From: Ann Morrison Fisher
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Re: Enlightenment & Gurus
Message-Id:
Antoine writes:
>The vow of Boddhisatva, according to me, is choosing between returning to
>Nirvana or staying in the consciousness of the personal God
Such a choice is not necessary. You can go into Nirvana and return to help others.
> until all the
>parts and the ALL are conscious as One of being the mirror of Nirvana.
Does this make any sense?
until all the parts [of 1] and the ALL [1] are conscious as One [1] of being the mirror of Nirvana [1].
Love,
Ann Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:32:43 -0600
From: Ann Morrison Fisher To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Enlightenment & Gurus Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"Jan Barendrecht" writes:
> It means that the Bodhisattva vow has become superfluous.
The Gita says (as near as my memory serves):
"When the river is overflowing, the reservoir is superfluous. "To the Seer, the Vedas [scriptures] are superfluous."
I add: To the boddhisattva, all definitions and vows of Boddhisattva are
superfluous."
>In order to attain, you have to renounce the world of illusion....
Only long enough to go into the All.
> The highest you can renounce is realization (of Nirvana, Self, whatever >you name it).
No need for that, unless to return is called renunciation.
Once there, always there. Not in the same sense, but in a very real sense.
The return is to a world transformed in awareness of the All.
Jamgon Kongtrul says one glimpse is enough:
"Uncontrived reality does not need to be sustained continuously: one incident recalled is sufficient....
If you know your own nature, it is the knowledge of the one thing that liberates all."
Love,
Ann Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:30:56 +0800
From: "Charles Attfield" To: "Kundalini Mailing List"
Subject: Re: Enlightenment - Gurus Message-ID:
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01FA_01BD4864.D68C72A0"
Dear Group
I just thought I'd throw my two pennyworth into discussion on Gurus and enlightenement.
To me a guru is only as good as the spiritual growth people gain from being in his/her presence. It has been stated that "By their fruits ye shall know them." If one needs to look to an outer form for one's own divinity then great. If not then don't. It's whatever is suitable for one's own evolution that's important. Personally, when I look to an enlightened guru I see a relection of my own divinity and usually he/she acts in a manner which reflects back to me what I need to see and in accordance with the level that I'm at.
As far as evolution is concerned I see that as an evolution of consciousness. Our consciousness evolves until ultimately it becomes the universal consciousness, which it has always been anyway - we just, for some reason seem temporarily unable to perceive it that way.
So who is your Guru? I suppose if you look to your husband or wife with complete and utter devotion, acknowledging their divinity and treating them with selfless respect, then they can be your guru. However, that seems a tall order so it would seem more sensible to me that if someone wants to look to a guru for guidance and help it would be wise to make sure that that person is totally Self-realised without any trace of ego. If the guru has ego then their teachings will be tainted.
In Light and Love
Chas
Attachment Converted: "C:\SLIP\EUDORA\kunda139" Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:05:04 EST
From: Harsha1MTM To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com
Subject: Ramana Maharshi and Kundalini Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
The teachings of the Sage of Arunachala, Ramana Maharishi, who guided me
and blessed me in my early youth focus almost exclusively on the Self-Enquiry involving asking the question "Who Am I." However, he did address questions
pertaining to Kundalini Shakti when appropriate. Anyone interested in this approach should read conversations with Ramana Maharishi or books written
about him. A book that I would recommend is "Talks with Ramana Maharshi" which is a compilation of conversations recorded by Ramananda Sarswati (between
1935-1939). Carl Jung called Ramana Maharshi "The purest (or the whitest) spot in a white land" Many of the greatest Yogis and Spiritual Masters of India
(Some of who later came to the U.S to teach) went to the sacred Hill of Arunachala to be in the presence of this great Sage. I believe Swami
Nityananda (Guru of Baba Muktananda) also visited there as did Swami Rama, founder of the Himalyan Institute. Swami Yogananda of SRF went there to visit
and asked questions. Various Holy men and even Shankracharyas used to go to him to clear their doubts. My teacher in his teen years, used to visit Sri
Ramana Maharishi as well. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:48:24 -0500
From: Harsh Luthar To: Peter Sutphen
CC: LarryN3515 , david.bozziATnospamsnet.net, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com,
owner-heartzenATnospamotto.servtech.com Subject: Re: HRTZEN: Re:A beginner's experience
Message-ID:
Peter Sutphen wrote: One question... Why "detach"?Harsha writes: Very good Peter! But should we not ask a more fundamental question...... "Who" detaches? Who?!
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:15:34 +0200 From: "Ivo Visic"
To: Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD4851.ED4C66C0"
unsubscribe me please
thanks
Attachment Converted: "C:\SLIP\EUDORA\kunda140" Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 09:34:33 -0500
From: Jan Curran To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Abducted...in real life Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello folks; I recieved this URL through and have checked
the site listed It seems to be very thorough.....so if you are in the USA
(or nearby) perhaps you have seen this missing child. Check it out yourself and forward it if you can....
Thanks for your time....
Jan
-- ivydruidATnospamtp.net * http://www.tp.net/tp/users/ivydruid/
ADF-ListmasterATnospamADF.ORG * http://www.adf.org/lists/subscribe.html Ar nDraiocht Fein: Our Own Druidism * http://www.adf.org/
World Tree Grove * http://www.adf.org/groves/world-tree/ ADF Healers' Guild *ask me for more information*
Devoted to Anthony, Cat, Juli, and Grove..... Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:30:30 -0800
From: Jerry Katz To: Harsha1MTM , kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: test pattern Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Harsha: You've got me kind of burned out with all your Ramana style
dialogue work. It's reached the point of dimishing returns. It is an effective method, tremendously effective, but only as an adjunct to
silence. Silence, a glance, a touch, a nod; then the oral questioning technique after all that. The Internet (as we use it) allows only for
the written questioning technique, which is the very last resort, and I am more guilty than anyone of using the words too much. Futility.
Can you say, s-i-l-e-n-c-e
Still, I am going to address your questions, just to finish-up this
thread, but in a certain way...
> Harsha: Who do you refer to when you speak of the Self-Realized or the God-
> Realized Sage? Who makes the choice?
Jerry: uh...Steve?
> Harsha: Jerry, you are a romantic! You are in love with something you do not
> grasp. The Sage is Fully Conscious. The Current of Self-Awareness is Ever- > Living.
Jerry: I once helped some guy put-up a display.
> Harsha: Who! Are you speaking of the body?
Jerry: Mary had a li...tle........la..............m
> Harsha: Who! Who are you referring to.
Jerry: uh.....Steve?
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:14:45 -0800 From: Jerry Katz
To: Harsha1MTM , kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Ramana Maharshi and Kundalini
Message-ID:
Harsha:
I sent my post entitled Test Pattern before reading your post on Ramana. Amazing coincidence. Basically you were burning me out on the Ramana
method.
Have you read anything by Alone? I include an excerpt from his book Raman Maharshi and J. Krishnamurti: Concomitant Factors in Their
Teachings. It describes the heart on the right side of the chest. It is a rare description told in a most unusual style.
Take care,
Jerry
http:www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:47:52
From: yogiartATnospamusa.net To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: subscrib me Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
subscrib Me
I am not new to the list but this is my new email address
I am Mohamed Omar from Egypt practicing hatha yoga since 1994, also I practiced k
yoga about one year (1995-96), then I returned back to hatha cause I didn't find guru to help me out.
My experience in kundalini:
last year I was aware of energy, colors and chackras. speically during chackra meditation.
And the opening of chackras such as heart and naval, some other times I see circls of energies in it,
since that time I didnot experienced anything powerfull yogiartATnospamusa.net
thanx
____
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:04:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Debora A. Orf" To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:57:24 EST >of the TM technique with each individual? Does he profess to be the
>actual >guru of each TMer i.e. making a life-after-life commitment until
>liberated >(because that is the true extent of the guru-disciple relationship)?
and thats like, the cool part!
In our tradition, we're told to evaluate the teacher for up to 12 years
or so before deciding (Unless you knew her or him from a past life, then theres like no question, you *know*)
It was interesting, when a friend said to another friend, the guru is the
teacher to whom you are most greateful. The one whose kindness and compassion and wisdom floored you so to speak.
at any rate, its fun talking about it all because it is so wonderful :).
have an auspicious day! (Tashi Deleg)
--janpa tsomo
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:16:40 -0600 From: jeannegATnospamicon.net (Jeanne Garner)
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Why so many crossposts?
Message-Id:
Hi, folks,
Forgive a moment of crankiness, but lately my email has been overabundant,
to say the least. What's worse, a lot of it's coming from a mailing list I haven't even requested, something called HRTZEN. Some days, more than half
of the mail from the k-list is a crosspost from this other list. I gave up on even trying to read them (mostly I just auto-delete them) because all too
often they were the tail-ends of conversations begun over there.
Why is it necessary to flood my email box (or anyone else's) with material from another mailing list? If I wanted to subscribe to the other list, I
would have. Force-feeding it to me (as folks are now doing) isn't going to convince me I should subscribe, either.
So I plead with kundalini list members and the List Mystress: Please, can't
we stick to the mailing list at hand??
Jeanne ==-* My stars!
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:13:05 EST From: LarryN3515
To: plslalATnospamclassic.msn.com, david.bozziATnospamsnet.net, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com,
owner-heartzenATnospamotto.servtech.com Subject: Re: RE: HRTZEN: Re:A beginner's experience
Message-ID:
Hi Peter, Larry Here
Why Detach? We detach to remove ego centered attachment from our being so that God's Will
can manifest through us. If we are attached to people, things or anything of the earth itself we limit the spirit flowing through us. For instance, I, in
particular, am attached still to my wife Elsie. In that attachment I think of her, her wishes and desires, her pleasures etc., before God. I may receive a
significant message from God, but if my focus is on my wife, then I may miss the message or fail to act on it because it may displease my wife. Also in
this attachment I try to control some aspects of her life and our love becomes possessive rather than free. As I see it, God's love is free and Elsie is
perfect as is my relationship with her, however, in my attachment the spirit is limited. As we grow with detachment our relationship also grows as does
our intimacy. In addition, as we become free er of each other we have more love flowing through us individually that we can share with others.
Attachment is the "personal" block to God; it is the block to entering the heart center and it is the cause of a puffed ego and much more. I have
rambled enough, but I think I have expressed the answer to your question. Thank you for the question, it has helped me reflect upon a very important
area of spiritual growth...Love Larry Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:15:26 EST
From: Esnshl4me To: jeannegATnospamicon.net, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Why so many crossposts? Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>Please, can't
we stick to the mailing list at hand??
Jeanne <
As for me, I appreciate getting the HeartZen posts... choose not to subscribe to both.
Cher
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:46:26 -0700 From: John Living
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Clogging
Message-Id:
Hi
I agree with the comments about cross posting.
If people want HRTZEN or any other mail, let them join that list.
It also seems that many on the K list just want to get publicity; they reply
to most posts, usually with a fatuous comment 'I Agree' or 'See my web page'.
This would appear to be a MAJOR EGO problem - and with such large (and uncontrolled) egos, I wonder why they are on the K list.
The list would be far better if all of us jusr concentrated on helping each
other, by responding wehen we have something VERY useful to add.
Perhaps you should look at the verse in my signature ! The original last line was "Why can't we be like that wise old bird ?" - and perhaps we should
try !
John
J.M.Living, P.Eng., A wise old owl lived in an oak;
2731 West 11th.Avenue, the more he saw, the less he spoke; Vancouver, B.C., the less he spoke, the more he heard;
Canada V6K 2L8 he was definitely not a political bird ! Vox & Fax (604) 737-7456
"The Truth is out there !" - and YOU can find it by Dowsing !
Dowsers * Questers / Canada: "http://users.uniserve.com/~questers/" Learn to use a Pendulum: "http://mypage.direct.ca/j/jliving/penlearn.htm"
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:56:25 -0500 From: "Sharon Webb"
To: Subject: detachment
Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Larry wrote:
>>For instance, I, in particular, am attached still to my wife Elsie. In that attachment I think
of her, her wishes and desires, her pleasures etc., before God. I may receive
a significant message from God, but if my focus is on my wife, then I may miss
the message or fail to act on it because it may displease my wife.>>
This attitude, IMHO, is pitiful. Detachment from outcome, from expectations, I can understand, but this! Gee, Larry, what if the
significant message from God is, "Love your wife?" What if it is, "Treasure her, learn from her, pleasure her and grow?"
Why live with her at all if your goal is to so thoroughly detach yourself
from what she is? Why not just move into a monastery or a cave and contemplate your navel all by yourself?
If detachment means cutting yourself off from earthly love and closeness
with family and friends, then I want nothing to do with it.
Sharon shawebbATnospamyhc.edu
A new fractal gallery was posted to this site on Jan. 1, '98: http://www.fractalus.com/sharon/
USA Today Hot Site; Cosmic Site of the Night: Cool Central Site of the Day; ENC Digital Dozen; Enchantment Award; ArtSearch Featured Site;
NetTech NeatTech: Best of the Web; Eye Candy, Honorable Mention; Studyweb Featured Site; Lotus Light Award; Wave of the Day featured site
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:05:07 -0600 From: jeannegATnospamicon.net (Jeanne Garner)
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Why so many crossposts?
Message-Id:
>As for me, I appreciate getting the HeartZen posts... choose not to subscribe
>to both.
Cher, I ask you: is it fair to those of us who have subscribed to one list to be forced to receive messages from another? Isn't that a little
inconsiderate?
Jeanne ==-* My stars!
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:58:56 -0500 From: Harsh Luthar
To: umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca CC: Harsha1MTM , kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Ramana Maharshi and Kundalini Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jerry Katz wrote:
> Harsha:
> > Have you read anything by Alone? I include an excerpt from his book
> Raman Maharshi and J. Krishnamurti: Concomitant Factors in Their > Teachings. It describes the heart on the right side of the chest.
Harsha writes: Probably because you are new to the list so may not be
aware that I often talk about the Heart in my posts in the context of Shakti Yoga. I was a Kundalini adept by my early 20s. I experienced Kevala
Nirvikalpa Samadhi when I was 23. In it, the Shakti rises to the Sahasharara and then descends from the front side slightly to right of the middle of the
chest (just above the rib cage, going towards the right nipple) and ends where the Spiritual Heart is. The Shakti, along with the slight mental
conscious remaining (the feeling of existence) merges completely in the Heart that is the Self. There emerges then the Self Existent Reality which
is Absolutely Complete and devoid of all sorrows. It has been called Sat-Chit-Ananda. People have different paths. Mine involved Shakti Yoga.
The Heart is certainly beyond Sahasharara from the mind's perspective, however once in the Heart, there is nothing left (no mind, no thought, no
doubt, no anything!) that can involve comparisons. It is Only As It Is. Kurt Keutzer and I had a discussion on this earlier. I agreed with him that there
are many different ways to come to Self Realization. However, I choose the word Heart as it is the Core of Reality and that is how I express my
experience through the mind. Others may do it differently. You asked about reading books. I was an avid book reader from the ages of 7-23. After
Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi, I lost interest in reading most spiritual books. The attraction was gone and I did not see the point anymore. I have read
very little on spirituality over the last 19 years or so. Perhaps others on the list have read the books you mention.
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