1998/03/04 21:21
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #170
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 170
Today's Topics: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus [ Afperry ]
Re. Enlightenment & Gurus [ Afperry ] Re: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus [ tgxxxATnospamjuno.com (tg langston) ]
Re: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus [ Harsh Luthar ] You are the chosen One! [ Harsh Luthar ]
Re: romantic love [ Druout ] Re: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus [ Antoine ]
Re: romantic love [ "Orea de Sa' Hana" ] RE: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus [ "Peter Sutphen" ]
Re: romantic love [ hpatel5ATnospamnotes.cc.bellcore.com ] RE: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus [ "Jan Barendrecht" ]
Re: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus [ Rita ] Celibacy-Serious Humor!-Short but Tr [ Harsha1MTM ]
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:57:24 EST From: Afperry
To: plslalATnospamclassic.msn.com Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Dear Peter,
Thanks for your thoughts. I have never been involved with TM but many of my
close friends have. From what I hear, TM is very commercially-oriented and many people obviously dislike Maharishi and his antics. But on the other hand,
TM has been so successful in opening people up to spirituality that one must praise MMY for his efforts! And by targetting over-stressed businessmen, etc.,
MMY has spread 'the word' to many who would otherwise simply have had their coronaries and died without ever considering anything beyond the material :-)
Please correct me if I am wrong, but what TM teaches is simply a form of japa
or Mantra Yoga, and the siddhi techniques are basically out of Patanjali. Nothing new here, these are ancient techniques that do not necessarily require
the on-hands guidance of a guru. So how relevant is MMY himself to the success of the TM technique with each individual? Does he profess to be the actual
guru of each TMer i.e. making a life-after-life commitment until liberated (because that is the true extent of the guru-disciple relationship)?
With blessings,
Alan Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:57:26 EST
From: Afperry To: jeannegATnospamicon.net
Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus
Message-ID:
Dear Jeanne,
>I think we all draw the teacher we need. If we've gotten a "bad" one, >perhaps it's time to pause and reflect on what we might learn from this
>experience, what might be in our hearts that attracted us to such a teacher. >Once we've learned the lesson, we can move on...
Yes, absolutely. Well said. But can I go even further and suggest that the
guru we receive is actually OUR PROJECTION - literally a manifestation of our inherent Divinity as we express it. He/She simply reflects to us what we are
projecting into the universe and therefore our karmic need at this stage of our spiritual journey..........
.........and books, organisations, movies, families, neighbours, newspapers,
food, kundalini lists, etc. ad nauseam, also do exactly the same....................:-)
It's all our own creation! But (before Harsha says it!): Who are we?
With blessings,
Alan Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:30:24 -0500
From: tgxxxATnospamjuno.com (tg langston) To: rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com
Cc: janbarenATnospaminfase.es, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com, butterbean6ATnospamjuno.com Subject: Re: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus
Message-ID:
Bob wrote... <I'm new to this, so please excuse what's no doubt a naive question..
but I understood that the Bodhisattva (sp?) tradition was that such beings could, and often did, choose to stay in touch with physical
reality so they could help out the rest of us..? Wouldn't these folks be qualified to be called "fully enlightened
gurus"?>>
If they were a true fully enlightened guru and chose to *stay*, then they would realize that there was no one to help but themselves, and to work
out their own separation and crapola, via thru working with others. Isn't that what we are all doing here?
xxxtg
To: Jan Barendrecht CC: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jan Barendrecht wrote:
> Jan: It is very unlikely that there are fully enlightened Gurus among
> us > Harsha writes: No need to go that far!
> . > Jan: Because it means that K. has finished its job and has"
> disappeared into the Void". >
> Harsha: The Shakti merges in the Source that is the the Self or the > Heart and becomes that. There is no disappearance. It is constant
> appearance or ever-living. It is the Sun that does not set anymore. >
> Jan: One of the secondary effects is that all senses that can cause > suffering (touch, taste, smell) aren’t functioning anymore. For
> instance, the "urge to breathe" is dead. >
> > Harsha: Why do you say that? How can the function of senses have any
> influence on the state of the Sage. What you say only applies to > Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Self is Recognized Clearly in this state
> due to the mergence of the Shakti along with the mind. Here even the > breath may stop or become very subtle but these are temporary physical
> symptoms. Breath may stop or become very subtle (Kevala Kumbhaka) in > lower samadhis as well but it does not result in Self-Realization.
> > Jan: Because of the impossibility to act under the influence of
> desire/senses, such a Guru is called perfect. > Harsha: Since the senses pertain to the body or subtle bodies and not
> the Self, the question of acting or not acting under the influence of > senses or desires does not arise for the Sage.
> > Jan: With regards to knowledge, there need not be any difference with
> "lesser" Gurus. As even persons with an active K. during 40 or more > years do not realize this state, it is unlikely that anyone can
> achieve this anymore. > Harsha: Active manifestations of Kundalini are not sufficient to
> recognize the Self. Such manifestations may be occuring for the > person's whole life. What does it matter? You have to distinguish
> between the manifestations of Kunalini Shakti and the Shakti Her Self. > A person may have an awakened Kundalini but if the mind is not pure
> and the strength of attachment to thoughts and different states of > consciousness is there, Self-Recognition is not there. Purity of Nadis
> and Purity of Mind are the same thing. With Purity of Mind comes > Calmness. Like a ripe apple fall down by it self to the ground, the
> Pure and Ripe Mind falls down by It Self on the Ground of > Consciousness that is the Self and becomes That or Recognizes It Self
> as That.. >
> Jan:The "final state" can also be described as continuous Nirvikalpa > Samadhi while being conscious of the phenomenal world etc. at the same
> time. It is the rarest of the rarest. >
> Harsh: There is no Final State. It is only Who You Are Even Now. That > is the Natural State. Yes. It is called Sahaj Nirvikalpa. You may say
> it is the rarest of the rare in a way. You may also say It Is the Only > Thing There Is.
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 12:51:43 -0500 From: Harsh Luthar
To: tg langston CC: rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com, janbarenATnospaminfase.es, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com,
butterbean6ATnospamjuno.com Subject: You are the chosen One!
Message-ID:
tg langston wrote:
> xxxtg > * I am the chosen one, just as I always suspected *
Harsha: That is so funny xxxtg. Truth is often hidden in humor!
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:18:22 EST From: Druout
To: anandajyotiATnospamgeocities.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: romantic love
Message-ID:
This may sound silly, but I have found that love does not always have to be reciprocated to be meaningful. It is often enough simply to love.
Love, Hillary
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:29:57 -0500 From: Antoine
To: tg langston CC: rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com, janbarenATnospaminfase.es, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com,
butterbean6ATnospamjuno.com Subject: Re: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus
Message-ID:
tg langston wrote:
> Bob wrote... > <I'm new to this, so please excuse what's no doubt a naive question..
> but I understood that the Bodhisattva (sp?) tradition was that such > beings could, and often did, choose to stay in touch with physical
> reality so they could help out the rest of us..? > Wouldn't these folks be qualified to be called "fully enlightened
> gurus"?>> >
> If they were a true fully enlightened guru and chose to *stay*, then they > would realize that there was no one to help but themselves, and to work
> out their own separation and crapola, via thru working with others. > Isn't that what we are all doing here?
The concept of enlightenment is a strange one to me. It is relative to the
ego that is enlighten. As we talk of one person that is enlighten, can't we talk of an enlighten specie, and enlighten planet, an enlighten cell in the
body, and enlighten universe? Where is the limit between the "me" to enlighten and the outside of that me? How big a mirror can i be to my Self?
Like the french writer Albert Camus wrote, "finding out i am the Self today,
is like discovering America today. It is not as a big deal than when Christopher Columbus did".
There is already a universal consciousness, from which we are part, that some
call the personal God in Christianity, or the Merkeba of the Universe according to Drunvalo, the overall consciousness (holistic) of the universe.
That consciousness knows that it is the ME, the mirror of the Me, of what IS, of Nirvana, of what connot be said. But it grows, like the individual
consciousness of a body grows, as it's parts become more and more conscious of the ALL.
The vow of Boddhisatva, according to me, is choosing between returning to
Nirvana or staying in the consciousness of the personal God until all the parts and the ALL are conscious as One of being the mirror of Nirvana.
I hope that the universe as enough "bodies" or egos for this process of
"enlightenment" to last indefinitely.
Antoine
-- "There is no saint without a past and no sinner without a future. Praise
everyone." -- Babaji Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 14:38:28 -0400
From: "Orea de Sa' Hana" To: Druout , kl List
Subject: Re: romantic love Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Nothing silly about it. This is very significant.
Blessings,
Orea
Druout wrote: >
> This may sound silly, but I have found that love does not always have to be > reciprocated to be meaningful. It is often enough simply to love.
> > Love, Hillary
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 98 20:24:15 UT From: "Peter Sutphen"
To: "Afperry" , plslalATnospamclassic.msn.com Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: RE: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus Message-Id:
Dear Alan,
What you say is very correct. TM is a form of japa but without any counting on a mala. The silent, effortless mental repetition of a mantra. The
TM-Sidhi Program is straight out of Patanjali. Sanayama: dharana, dhyana, and samadhi all together. It is very interesting that MMY has never presented
himself as a Guru within or outside of the TM Movement. He always turns everything over to his Guru, Brahmananda Saraswati. But many, many people
have had subtle body initiations and healings from MMY. Of course this is not talked about by MMY in private or public. He just waves his hand as if to
dismiss it, and doesn't say anything more about it. TM and the TM-Sidhi Program is very commercial, yet it is an extraordinary powerful technique.
Some people get very few results from it. Others get blown away and become psychotic. And others wakeup one fine spring afternoon ten years ago and are
as infinite as the sky. My oh my where did my "I" go?? :) -Peter
----------
From: Afperry Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 11:57 AM
To: plslalATnospamclassic.msn.com Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus
Dear Peter,
Thanks for your thoughts. I have never been involved with TM but many of my close friends have. From what I hear, TM is very commercially-oriented and
many people obviously dislike Maharishi and his antics. But on the other hand, TM has been so successful in opening people up to spirituality that one must
praise MMY for his efforts! And by targetting over-stressed businessmen, etc., MMY has spread 'the word' to many who would otherwise simply have had their
coronaries and died without ever considering anything beyond the material :-)
Please correct me if I am wrong, but what TM teaches is simply a form of japa or Mantra Yoga, and the siddhi techniques are basically out of Patanjali.
Nothing new here, these are ancient techniques that do not necessarily require the on-hands guidance of a guru. So how relevant is MMY himself to the success
of the TM technique with each individual? Does he profess to be the actual guru of each TMer i.e. making a life-after-life commitment until liberated
(because that is the true extent of the guru-disciple relationship)?
With blessings, Alan
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:36:24 GMT From: rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com (Bob Trevithick)
To: lodpressATnospamintercomm.com Cc: heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: HRTZEN: background noise Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:41:17 +0100, you wrote:
>Our group meditates together on Thursday night at 7:15pm for about an >hour. That time would work or we can pick another doesn't make any
>difference, let's just throw it out there and see what comes to >everyone.
Let's see.. that would be 10:15 EST, right. That would work for me.
-- Bob Trevithick
rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 16:46:38 -0600
From: FIute To: "kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com"
Subject: Seizures Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
My daughter was born with severe birth trauma which limited oxygen to
her brain and nervous system.. She had Gran Mal seizures for about 12 years.. and No.. It did not have anything to do with abuse.. The
physical brain trauma was the cause.. Love,
flute Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:42:09 -0500
From: hpatel5ATnospamnotes.cc.bellcore.com To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: romantic love Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Hillary,
This is very profound. This is unselfish thinking of others first.
Hemant
( Newbie)
kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com on 03/04/98 01:18:58 PM
To: anandajyotiATnospamgeocities.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
cc: (bcc: Hemant M. Patel/Bellcore) Subject: Re: romantic love
This may sound silly, but I have found that love does not always have to be reciprocated to be meaningful. It is often enough simply to love.
Love, Hillary Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:25:07 -0000
From: "Jan Barendrecht" To:
Subject: RE: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus Message-ID:
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C0_01BD47CD.26659060"
Dear Bob,
Your question is far from naive. The Bodhisattva tradition is mainly found in Mahayana Buddhism. Among others,Tibetan Buddhists are still practicing it. Ramana Maharishi once compared the speed of spiritual unfolding with the capacity to burn for different fuels. So even despite the Bodhisattva vow, once you will be a fully enlightened one. The Ven. H. Saddhatissa once wrote a book about Buddhist morals & ethics. In the chapter about the goal of Buddhism (the Hinayana version) he clearly states a nirvana "with substrate remaining" and a nirvana "without substrate". The one with a substrate endows perfect knowledge and exemplary behavior, but in this state you have all the feelings etc. that you had before entering this state. When Buddhism was flowering, many realized this state, it is perfect for householders. If you are not satisfied with your feelings, you can continue with your practice and ultimately, all feelings will be burnt. In gnostic writings (Rosicrucians, Hermetism) you will find the very same states (rebirth and the final state of transfiguration) with the same application. The dictum: "what has a beginning, must have an end, applies to K. as well. If Nirguna consciousness is one´s permanent state, it means such a Master can aid disciples anytime, the end of the body is of no significance. It means that the Bodhisattva vow has become superfluous. Ramana Maharishi repeatedly reminded his disciples of the fact that he was not the body they were looking at. You can still draw guidance and inspiration from the ancient Masters. The Master is completely immersed in unconditional bliss (independent of the body in a most literary sense). This type of bliss gives off a powerful radiation, and such a Master can teach in silence. Lesser Gurus have to revert to lore and verbal instructions like mantras etc., in order to teach. Concluding, I assume you know that spirituality means renunciation. In order to attain, you have to renounce the world of illusion (this doesn´t mean inactivity). The highest you can renounce is realization (of Nirvana, Self, whatever you name it). It is a possible reason for the Bodhisattva vow.
Jan
>On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:36:10 -0000, you wrote:
>>It is very unlikely that there are fully enlightened Gurus among us. Because it >>means that K. has finished its job and has" disappeared into the Void".
>I'm new to this, so please excuse what's no doubt a naive question..
>but I understood that the Bodhisattva (sp?) tradition was that such >beings could, and often did, choose to stay in touch with physical
>reality so they could help out the rest of us..?
>Wouldn't these folks be qualified to be called "fully enlightened >gurus"?
>Thanks,
>Bob >--
>Bob Trevithick
Attachment Converted: "C:\SLIP\EUDORA\kunda137" Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:35:25 +0100
From: Gloria Greco To: Bob Trevithick
CC: heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Re: HRTZEN: background noise
Message-ID:
Bob Trevithick wrote: >
> On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:41:17 +0100, you wrote: >
> >Our group meditates together on Thursday night at 7:15pm for about an > >hour. That time would work or we can pick another doesn't make any
> >difference, let's just throw it out there and see what comes to > >everyone.
> > Let's see.. that would be 10:15 EST, right. That would work for me.
GG
Yes, that is right, perhaps everyone can find their time and join us then.
> -- > Bob Trevithick
> rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher. Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at: http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
& http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them! Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:38:14 -0400
From: "Orea de Sa' Hana" To: Dave Estes , kl List
Subject: Re: A New Subscriber Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Dave,
Welcome! Feel free to jump right in.
Blessings,
Orea
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:53:20 -0500 From: Rita
To: Peter Sutphen CC: Afperry , richardATnospamskydancer.com, Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Re. Enlightenment & Gurus Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Peter wrote:
> My own experiences are with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Over the years MMY has
> done things that make no sense to me and grossly violate my own ethics. The > TM Movement is even worse at times! They have royally screwed people over.
> Yet my personal experiences with him and my over 25 year practice of his > techniques (TM, TM-Sidhi Program, Age of Enlightenment Techniques,many
> advanced meditation techniques, etc.) have made it abundantly clear to me that > he is an "authentic" Guru. Even his extraordinary, enlightened disciple, Shri
> Shri Ravi Shankar (Punditji) has expressed puzzlement over MMY's behavior. > Yet MMY is his Guru! Many of my fellow TMer's over the years have fallen by
> the way side and viciously attack MMY and the TM Movement (see the newsgroup: > alt.meditation.transcendental) I understand why they do this. But when they
> say MMY is an absolute fraud, I pause and realize no, he is not. If I did not > have the experiences I have had, it would be easy to agree with them. But it
> is the experiences that make me realize that he is not what they claim. I > can't wait until the day I can understand this! It is some sort of
> extraordinary gift for us. But man o' man, what ugly wrapping paper! > -Peter
Dear Peter,
I had the opportunity to meet Mararishi Mahesh Yogi during my teacher training course in Europe in 1973, and I agree whole heartedly that he
is an "authentic guru"! One point that I might add in the defence of the attacks made against the teachings of the TM movement, is that the real
purity of the techniques handed down from the tradition of Masters is taught by TM teachers EXACTLY as Mararhishi instructs. NOTHING from the
individuals influence or personality is added, or changed to the instructions. So, the teachings are in there purity. However, it may be
that as the organization grew, some of the knowledge shared in course lectures and centers began to reflect the impurity of some of the TM
teachers as they attempted to "add knowledge" and "guide" fellow TMer's when they themselves are not realized teachers.
Some of the frustrations have been felt by myself also, when personal
guidance was not available. But, I did not let my frustrations distort my inner knowledge of the truth of the teachings and my respect for his
Holiness!
-Rita Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:13:57 EST
From: Harsha1MTM To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com
Subject: Celibacy-Serious Humor!-Short but True Story Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Harsha writes: At the age 22, I was training to be a monk. I used to make a
living teaching Yoga at a major health club in NYC. Beautiful models and
actresses wearing revealing work out clothes came there everyday and it was a challenge to not be distracted. On top of it, my job required me
to take measurements of the members when they first joined and show them how to use various machines. In order to remain chaste, I tried not to
make eye contact with the women and looked at their shoulders or past them when holding a conversation.
One day, a particularly stunning female member joined and was assigned
to me. After I took the measurements, she requested that I feel her buttocks ("Tush" as she put it) for firmness. I was stunned. "How will
you know if I have gotten firmer unless you have something to compare it to," she said, and insisted that I comply. My supervisor standing next
to me said, "We have to please our customers!" So with the blood rushing to my face and neck with embarassment and practically in tears, I did as
I was told. She was quite firm.
After that it became a weekly ritual for her. She insisted at the end of each week that I determine the extent of her firmness in that area. And
feeling that this was part of my job duties, I methodically and carefully did so each week and gave my report to her.
Some months went by and one day she did not show up as scheduled. A
friend, a fellow Yogi, knowing my plight said to me, "You are spared this week. It must bother you that you have to do this as part of your
job." I could not resist smiling. "No it does not bother me anymore David," I said. "I am more concerned about the fact that I have started
to look forward to it!" And we laughed and laughed and laughed.
Harsha
DISCLAIMER!
Home | Archive Index | Search the archives | Subscribe
K. List FAQ | Kundalini FAQs | Signs and Symptoms | Awakening Experiences | K. list Polls | Member Essays | Meditations | List Topics | Art Gallery | Cybrary | Sitemap | Email the moderators.
symbol.