1998/03/02 08:41
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #160
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 160
Today's Topics:
Re: sitting between two chairs [ Jerry Katz <umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca> ]
Re: HRTZEN: background noise [ Mary Ezzell <maryATnospamsonic.net> ]
Enlightenment? [ Richard Wentk <richardATnospamskydancer.co ]
Re: Chanting ?'s-one more! [ "Orea de Sa' Hana" <oreaATnospamerols.com> ]
Re: Drinking too much? Is this a sid [ hbarrettATnospamix.netcom.com (Holly N. Ba ]
Re: Enlightenment? [ "Sen Ashanka"<sashankaATnospamaismi.ais.it ]
Re: Chanting ?'s-one more! [ "Sen Ashanka"<sashankaATnospamaismi.ais.it ]
Re: Enlightenment? [ Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospambryant.edu> ]
Re: Enlightenment? [ rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com (Bob Trevit ]
Re: HRTZEN: background noise [ Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.te ]
Re: Enlightenment? [ "Sen Ashanka"<sashankaATnospamaismi.ais.it ]
Re: Enlightenment? [ Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospambryant.edu> ]
Re: another quest.. [ Uni8077 <Uni8077ATnospamaol.com> ]
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 01:25:28 -0800
From: Jerry Katz <umbadaATnospamns.sympatico.ca>
To: PEGLUMPKIN <PEGLUMPKINATnospamaol.com>, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: sitting between two chairs
Message-ID: <34FA7B08.4514ATnospamns.sympatico.ca>
PEGLUMPKIN wrote: (I'm leaving intact what you wrote because it is a
beautiful summary of the provocative.)
The comment I would like to make (at the end of this) regards the
dilemma of the Guru. It is a very lengthy comment.
> Is there more than one guru who used the name Osho? The only one I am
> familiar with was the guru who formerly went by the name Bhagwan Shree
> Rajneesh. When I read Jack Kornfield's book "A Path with Heart," the chapter
> called "The Emperor's New Clothes, Problems with Teachers," I was reminded of
> the experience our state had with Rajneeshpuram, Osho's community in Oregon.
> It was one of those spiritual communities that armed itself literally with
> guns, wire tapping equipment, a fleet of Rolls Royces, and lawyers. His main
> spokesperson and personal secretary, Ma Anand Sheela, fled the country after
> serving prison time for attempted murder and various other charges. Many
> local people who were originally drawn to the spiritual community were not
> comfortable with being pressured to only wear red, have free-for-all sex, and
> turn over all their assets. They told stories of people being encouraged to
> act out rape fantasies. When the bhagwan was deported after pleading guilty
> to immigration fraud and tax evasion, the community dissolved.
>
> And yet, if you read Osho's writing, his words very enlightened. Did he not
> know what was occurring in his community? Did he let it all happen as a
> practical lesson in the corruption of power? Luckily, none of the murder
> attempts was successful. What would he have done had they been successful and
> he had found out? Do the shenanigans of his lieutenants have any relevance to
> or any effect on his teachings? Even though Osho has passed on, there are
> still Osho communities around the world. I read that to gain admittance to
> the Osho community in Poona, one must test negative for HIV and that testing
> is administered at the entrance. It's hard for me to understand the intent.
> And yet I know there are many people around the world who feel that Osho was
> truly enlightened and a gifted spiritual leader. Maybe some day I can take
> the wisdom of his words and not worry about why he had 96 Rolls Royces.
>
> Peg
So...first of all....Rajneesh knew what was going on. I saw a news
interview in which he was asked whether he was disappointed in the
actions of Ma Anand Sheela. Rajneesh said Yes, that he was disappointed.
He said he was disappointed in her because she did not go far enough
with her intentions.
Rajneesh, folks.
I remember when I was a young and crazy and twenty something and living
in Los Angeles. I had a first date with a young lady and I asked her if
she wanted to go see a documentary about Rajneesh. (Mistake Numero Uno
-- guys, if you want to impress a woman and give her that secure feeling
that your feet are planted firmly on the ground and that they will
forever remain there...you want that, right?...(right)...don't take her
to a movie that shows multitudes of rhythmless white people dressed in
flowing orange robes dancing to some whiney Indian music, arms and legs
and long hair flayling about with Rajneesh approaching the occasional
one, placing his thumb upon the devotee's third eye while the devotee,
probably a dentist today and doing very well thank you, swooned and fell
to the floor bug-eyed.)
So we go deep into Hollywood (it was a section of Hollywood where the
best selling soft drink was Inca Cola, a horrible yellow, bubble gum
tasting...liquid) to a theater that I'd never before noticed, get our
tickets, go inside and take our seats. (Mistake Number Two -- don't go
out on a first date to a theater in which every other seat has been
yanked-out to leave enough space for about 9 buckets of extra extra
large popcorn. I was sitting closer to the guy in front of me than to my
date. And he was sitting closer to me than to his date. He turned to me
and asked me if I was enjoying the show. He asked ME if I wanted some of
his Pepsi. I asked HIM if he remembered where I'd parked.)
So the movie's on, and, yes, I distincly remember scenes of young men
and women in a large room and a guy was taunting a woman to take off her
clothes. You could see she was unhappy about it, the group was
encouraging her to do it. Nothing graphic was shown in the movie, but
the whole scene was uncomfortable. That's true and it's nothing to make
light of. In my own crazy roundabout way I'm trying to show that what
has been attributed to Rajneesh or Osho is likely true.
Clearly, the young lady I took out on this date was not the woman I
ended up marrying.
But back to business. What I want to discuss is the dilemma of the Guru.
Whether it is Rajneesh (Osho), Adi Da Samraj (Da Love Ananda),
Muktananda or whoever. So thank you for bearing with me while I quote
myself from some other writing I've done. It is lengthy and my intent is
only to inform or to give food for thought. It is just my knowledge and
I don't know who else to tell it to. So thanks, here it is:
Whereas the dilemma of the worldly, so-called unenlightened being rests
in the non-permanence of things, experiences and other living beings
and, therefore, the necessity to investigate, collect, define, classify,
conserve, possess, interpret and die; the dilemma of The Enlightened One
who is attempting to communicate The Absolute, is the permanence factor;
not because The Enlightened One subscribes to that, but because He must
communicate the unchanging Absolute, even though the reality to be
communicated is neither unchanging nor changing. He is obligated to take
every step to communicate what he does not subscribe to.
The Enlightened One must live in the world of beings suffering their
coming deaths. He must pretend there is another world which is
unchanging, and He is the Absolute, which neither is nor is not. His
dilemma is the greatest. He is the greatest pretender. Much greater than
the so-called unenlightened one. It is no surprise that some Masters of
the most ultimate understanding exhibit frustration, insist they are
understood by nobody, engage in unethical, perhaps illegal activities,
contradict themselves moment to moment, try to adhere to specific
teachings, wear robes and die young. They are enmeshed in dilemma. But
where others, at best, are witnesses of dilemma, to the Master dilemma
is OM and OM is already translated into Ultimate Reality.
Still, there is no limit to the frustration of the Master or Guru, as is
evidenced by publicized materialistic tendencies, unrestricted sexual,
alcohol, drug activities, extraordinary requirements financially,
emotionally and mentally from followers. Any person who criticizes the
Guru is not him or herself the Guru. Nor is one a Guru simply by
practicing extreme or exaggerated activities in an atmosphere of
spirituality.
Because the true Guru is OM and the translation of OM into Ultimate
Reality, he has a very miniscule place in the world. That is a great
dilemma. Because the world is coming to Him. The one activity of the
Guru is the translation of OM (all that is) into Ultimate Reality. In a
way, this one activity is the destruction of everything, the consumption
of everything by Ultimate Reality.
That is why, when Rajneesh was asked whether he was disappointed in the
activities of Ma Anand Sheela, he responded that he was disappointed she
had not gone far enough with her intentions. To the Guru Ultimate
Reality is always already consuming all that is. It is plain to
Rajneesh. Nobody. Not His closest disciple lived that knowledge (Oh,
they may have known it but it was not their nature.)
His ashram simply consumed all that was and converted it to Ultimate
Reality. That conversion is much greater than destruction. You can
re-build what was destroyed or try to. Not so when the conversion is to
Ultimate Reality. It is worse than death. So, sure, he was disappointed
Sheela hadn't gone further. That further was conversion of all that is
to Ultimate Reality. Relatively speaking, it is greater than anything,
utterly devastating. Kundalini, to bring things back home, is the lion
at the gate of Ultimate Reality.
My objective has been to give some explanation for how a guy can be a
genius of spiritual knowledge and exceedingly strange at the same time.
He was not either. He was/is Ultimate Reality. When that is understood,
all else is understood. Better to understand why he had 96 Rolls Royces
than to understand the wisdom of his words, I would suggest.
Thank you for listening. I'm really not satisfied with my explanation.
But It's late and I'm real tired. And I hear people criticizing Guru's,
usually Andrew Cohen and his crowd, so now you've heard another side, if
you actually hung around and read this.
Thank you good people.
Jerry
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 21:52:07 -0800
From: Mary Ezzell <maryATnospamsonic.net>
To: Danijel Turina <dturinaATnospamusa.net>, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: HRTZEN: background noise
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980227172946.00d150d0ATnospampop.sonic.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Me too on all this. When things are going right, my aura wants to spread
out wide and ripple. :-) Then people come and step on it. :-(
As you say, having to talk to people etc distorts it. I think sometimes
they want to distort/interrupt it, because it's not conventional. They say
you have a funny look on your face or something.
Also noise affects it, especially modern music.
I've had a big handicap about shopping, restaurants, etc that play music.
Finally tried something that helped:
1. filled ears with layer of cotton, handlotion, more cotton
2. wore walkman with classical music (Respigi?)
Let's see, there was another time I got by by humming Om, to fill my ears
from the inside with a better sound. This worked really well. (I used one
with a lot of melody in it: om - mm -- o o o ooo uh mm.) Also visualized a
sort of bullet-proof plastic cylinder around me.
Don't remember if I used ear plugs too.
At 04:10 PM 2/25/98 +0100, Danijel Turina wrote:
>Brr! :)) I don't know exactly how to explain... when I know what I'm doing,
>when I use something known to me - there is not enough noise anywhere to
>distract me. :) However, when I'm exploring, "listening", discovering
>things - that means letting subtle pranic flows show themselves, so I can
>actually see the light going through them, things opening up, things like
>that - I just have to open myself fully and observe, let things happen, not
>act. If there is interference, like having to work or talk to people -
>especially the sorts of people I interact with on a daily basis (Mordor
>again..:), the flow is disturbed; then I have to work myself in for several
>minutes or longer to reach that level again. I was fortunate I was doing
>that work on Vesak last year, very high vibe, and it helped a lot. I don't
>know if this makes things clearer...
>PS Now that I think of it, it is the need to interact that disturbs me - I
>meditate on a throat chakra pranic flow, and someone is all over me, wants
>me to respond, wants to interact - and that is all the time; well, I simply
>have to mess my systems up and talk to that person so he/she leaves me
>alone, and then go in again. Things that I don't have to interact with
>don't bother me. That's why I want to go to an island. ;))))
>
>-----
>E-mail : dturinaATnospamusa.net
>Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 11:23:55 +0000
From: Richard Wentk <richardATnospamskydancer.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Enlightenment?
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980302112204.00918100ATnospammail.which.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Some comments about 'enlightenment':
1. Most role models for the state have been dead a very long time. This
means we know far more about their mythology than we do about them as
people. (To some extent this also applies to the candidates that are still
alive.) Mythologies are interesting things... (Anyone out there waiting for
Elvis to return?)
2. It's incredibly easy to be a teacher, and to teach stuff that you
haven't really mastered. And people will take you seriously anyway. (I'm
speaking from experience here.)
3. It's incredibly easy to start a religion, and to get people to believe
completely ridiculous things. And also to pay good money for the
'teachings.' There are so many examples out there, both ancient and modern,
that I'm not even going to try to list them.
4. A very easy way to appear wise is to persistently wrong-foot people's
expectations. If you're fairly bright and fairly creative it's not a hard
thing to do. Whether or not it has any spiritual value is debatable. I
rather suspect it doesn't, but that's just my opinion.
Personally I don't believe there's any such thing as enlightenment.
Certainly not in the sense of waking up one day and getting 'it', and
everything being totally fab and groovy in a spiritual sense from then on.
When it comes to looking for teachers I'm more impressed by those who've
led a full life and have overcome any number of handicaps, than those who
waft around in robes on clouds of incense looking gnomic and inscrutable
and speaking in impressive-sounding but meaninglessly vague cosmic absolutes.
As for Osho, I've had some dealings with the Osho-inspired version of
Tantra. While I can see the attraction, and I don't think the approach is
valueless, there's a certain lack of subtlety and a certain emphasis on
conformity of belief there that don't quite match the PR. These put me off
and made me look for a gentler path for my own development.
R.
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:10:28 -0400
From: "Orea de Sa' Hana" <oreaATnospamerols.com>
To: Meadowart <MeadowartATnospamaol.com>, kl List <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: Re: Chanting ?'s-one more!
Message-ID: <34FAAFC4.1D0DCD32ATnospamerols.com>
I want to thank those of you who responded to my questions. Here's another
one...would it be unwise to chant while driving?
Blessings,
Orea
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:15:29 -0600 (CST)
From: hbarrettATnospamix.netcom.com (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.)
To: deliriumATnospamionet.net
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Drinking too much? Is this a side-effect of K for some?
Message-Id: <199803021415.IAA04390ATnospamdfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>
Delirium -- in the early days of my awakening I was attracted toward an
almost ritual use of wine, never very much, but consistently, when the
energy was running high (pun probably intended). Though others said
all drugs and alcohol would get in the way, I found wine had a
facilitating effect for a time. But after awhile I completely lost my
taste for alcohol -- part of the purification process, I suppose, and
am more sensitive to all kinds of substances than before. So I guess
I'd say pay close attention and kundalini will show you what is best
for you. Holly
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:23:11 +0100
From: "Sen Ashanka"<sashankaATnospamaismi.ais.it>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Enlightenment?
Message-Id: <C12565BB.004CE0C0.00ATnospamais.it>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
----R wrote : --
>Some comments about 'enlightenment':
>
>1. Most role models for the state have been dead a very long time.
> .....Mythologies are interesting things...
Very very true indeed. We do seem to be living in times
where truely enlightened persons prefer to live in obscurity
and work their salvation in little trickles of humanity than
come as messiahs and save a full population.
>2. It's incredibly easy to be a teacher, and to teach stuff that you
>haven't really mastered. ....
He who can, does, ... he who cannot, teaches....
>3. It's incredibly easy to start a religion .....
Right on the point.
>4. A very easy way to appear wise is to persistently wrong-foot people's
>expectations.....
Look at the politicians and the world leaders ....
>Personally I don't believe there's any such thing as enlightenment.
>Certainly not in the sense of waking up one day and getting 'it', and
>everything being totally fab and groovy in a spiritual sense from then on.
Well, all the above statements are absolutely true. To give you a little
example : In the dark a piece of rope liying in a coil can look
like a snake and invoke fear in a person. However, the moment there
is a little light and the person realises that this was a piece
of rope, the fear goes away. That same rope no longer invokes fear.
When we wake up from a terrible nightmare, our heart is pounding
and we breath heavily and we are in fear. When we realise that it
was a dream, slowly and steadily we get over this fear and are no
longer troubled by it.
When we see a movie of devastation and war and sorrow etc. we get
involved to the extent of enjoying the story. When the movie gets
over we are back to our normal lives with the added memory of having
seen a movie with certain emotions.
Similarly, the enlightened persons tell us that this world is not
real in terms of what we see with out limited senses and intellect.
There is much more to enjoy and love if everything is directed and
submitted to God. From then on, this world and the senses remain,
but the consciousness is certainly at a different plane and remains
there henceforth. What that plane is, words cannot describe. You
will have to experience it for yourself. Religious teachers can
help us on the path, but the effort is ours and so are the
experiences.
Enlightenment is real, once you get it you will know it....
As you rightly said, enlightement is not something that happens
to you when you wake up in the morning and ---twang.... you are
enlightened. That happens only in the movies.... :-)
If you have meditated continuously for 21 days non-stop, then
it is said that you will surely get enlightenment. There have
been saints who have done this and received enlightenment.
Enlightenment is not something exernal. It is realisation
of your own Infinite Knowledge, Infinite Bliss, Infinite
Love, Infinite Happiness. We have to remove our illusion
that we are limited. We have to continuously take the name
of the Lord and we will be enlightened.
>When it comes to looking for teachers I'm more impressed by those who've
>led a full life and have overcome any number of handicaps, than those who
>waft around in robes on clouds of incense looking gnomic and inscrutable
>and speaking in impressive-sounding but meaninglessly vague cosmic
absolutes.
Indian teachers of spiritual principles will tell you first
to weigh everything they say, think about it, evaluate it,
argue, discuss, convince yourself, and then and only then
continue further. Think, convince yourself of the path, and
then develop faith. There is no blind belief.
Meaninglessly vague cosmic absolutes could be some fundamental
principles of life, which would make sense to us if we meditate
and make some effort to understand. Just because we do not
understand something does not make that knowledge garbage.....
>As for Osho, I've had some dealings with the Osho-inspired version of
>Tantra. While I can see the attraction, and I don't think the approach is
>valueless, there's a certain lack of subtlety and a certain emphasis on
>conformity of belief there that don't quite match the PR. These put me off
>and made me look for a gentler path for my own development.
What you have said is perfectly true for everyone. We all must
choose the path that suits us to reach The Absolute Infinite
Bliss. Osho is good for some people, someone else is good for
others. I personally do not think Osho was an enlightened person,
but that is only my own opinion based on my limited incomplete
intellect. There are others who think him to be God.
Cheers and love to all
Ashanka
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:29:21 +0100
From: "Sen Ashanka"<sashankaATnospamaismi.ais.it>
To: oreaATnospamerols.com
Cc: MeadowartATnospamaol.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Chanting ?'s-one more!
Message-Id: <C12565BB.004F11A8.00ATnospamais.it>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Orea wrote :
>I want to thank those of you who responded to my questions. Here's
another
>one...would it be unwise to chant while driving?
Chanting in Indian is called "Jap".
Jap, constant repetition of the Lord's name gives
peace and stability to the mind.
This is done in three stages :
1. Chanting audibly.
2. Chanting in whispers with the lips moving
3. Chanting in the mind.
We start with level 1, and go on to level 2 and then on to level 3.
With practice the level 3 comes about in a natural manner in whatever
activity we are doing.
If you are in level 1, maybe there is an effort involved and might distract
you from what you are doing. (Therefore need not chant while driving).
If, however, by practice you can chant in level 2 or 3, then there is no
problem in doing whatever you want and continue chanting at the back
of your mind.
Constant chanting also helps in concentrating the mind and increasing
the output of intellectual activities.
Cheers and love to all
Ashanka
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:41:30 -0500
From: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospambryant.edu>
To: Richard Wentk <richardATnospamskydancer.com>
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Enlightenment?
Message-ID: <34FAC519.B8759C14ATnospambryant.edu>
Richard Wentk wrote:
> Some comments about 'enlightenment':
>
> 1. Most role models for the state have been dead a very long time.
Harsha writes: Bless you Richard but No Richard. They are All Alive!.
> Richard Wentk wrote:. It's incredibly easy to be a teacher, and to teach stuff
> that you
> haven't really mastered.
Harsha writes: Bless you Richard but No. It is not possible to truly teach
(transmit in the spiritual sense) anything that you have not mastered.
> Richard Wentk wrote: And people will take you seriously anyway. (I'm
> speaking from experience here.)
Harsha writes: Yes. God bless you Richard, but that says something about you and
the caliber of people attracted to you!
> Richard Wentk wrote: Personally I don't believe there's any such thing as
> enlightenment.
> Certainly not in the sense of waking up one day and getting 'it',
Harsha writes: There Is! It is Knowing without Thought or Doubt who You Truly
Are!
> Richard Wentk wrote: and everything being totally fab and groovy in a spiritual
> sense from then on.
Harsha: You are now imagining the State. Yes there is nothing fab and groovy
about being Your Self.
> Richard Wentk wrote: When it comes to looking for teachers I'm more impressed
> by those who've led a full life and have overcome any number of handicaps,
Harsha writes: Yes. This is all right. You should look for someone whom you can
respect and trust and with whom you feel peace.
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:53:43 GMT
From: rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com (Bob Trevithick)
To: hlutharATnospambryant.edu
Cc: Richard Wentk <richardATnospamskydancer.com>, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Enlightenment?
Message-ID: <34fdc749.8304586ATnospammail.redsuspenders.com>
On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:41:30 -0500, you wrote:
>Harsha writes: Bless you Richard but No. It is not possible to truly teach
>(transmit in the spiritual sense) anything that you have not mastered.
Harsha,
Do you not feel that there's some truth in the old saying that we
teach best that which we most need to learn?
Can't the teacher share the teachings, and then progress with them and
develop along with the students?
Just thinking out loud...
Love,
Bob
--
Bob Trevithick
rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 16:00:45 +0100
From: Danijel Turina <sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr>
To: heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: HRTZEN: background noise
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980302160045.00961a10ATnospampop.tel.hr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Mary! :)
At 21:52 1998.03.01 -0800, Mary Ezzell wrote:
>Me too on all this. When things are going right, my aura wants to spread
>out wide and ripple. :-) Then people come and step on it. :-(
Exactly! :)) LOL :))))
>As you say, having to talk to people etc distorts it. I think sometimes
>they want to distort/interrupt it, because it's not conventional. They say
>you have a funny look on your face or something.
Yes, they feel uncomfortable and don't settle until I become something they
can handle. And telling them to fuck off doesn't help either, coz that vibe
disturbs me even more. :) I just have to give them their "food" and
continue. But it really feels like a waste of time and energy. <sigh> :)
>Also noise affects it, especially modern music.
>
>I've had a big handicap about shopping, restaurants, etc that play music.
>Finally tried something that helped:
>
>1. filled ears with layer of cotton, handlotion, more cotton
>2. wore walkman with classical music (Respigi?)
>
>Let's see, there was another time I got by by humming Om, to fill my ears
>from the inside with a better sound. This worked really well. (I used one
>with a lot of melody in it: om - mm -- o o o ooo uh mm.) Also visualized a
>sort of bullet-proof plastic cylinder around me.
>Don't remember if I used ear plugs too.
:) Yes, that's cute. :) I observed one thing - watching TV upsets me and
builds stress - but it is the sound, not the picture. When I turn off the
sound, I immediately relax, muscles relax, it is OK. It is the sound that
gets me involved, transfers that vibe to me.
-----
E-mail : sinisa.turinaATnospamzg.tel.hr
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1377
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:20:39 +0100
From: "Sen Ashanka"<sashankaATnospamaismi.ais.it>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Cc: hlutharATnospambryant.edu, richardATnospamskydancer.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Enlightenment?
Message-Id: <C12565BB.0053A711.00ATnospamais.it>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Bob wrote :
>Harsha,
>
>Do you not feel that there's some truth in the old saying that we
>teach best that which we most need to learn?
>
>Can't the teacher share the teachings, and then progress with them and
>develop along with the students?
>
>Just thinking out loud...
>
>Love,
>Bob
Dear Bob,
This old saying does apply to all fields of activity except spiritual. The
spiritual
teacher is perfect and has attained enlightenment. There is no further
progress.
There is no knowledge beyond the absolute.
Harsha wrote :
>Harsha writes: Bless you Richard but No. It is not possible to truly teach
>(transmit in the spiritual sense) anything that you have not mastered.
This is true, a teacher who has not reached enlightement will not be able
to
lead others to it. It is likethe blind leading the blind.
In any other field of knowledge the teacher and student can learn and
progress etc. But not in spiritual knowledge. This is why there is such a
lot of stress given on the student to seek out an enlightened teacher
and then have complete un-inhibited faith in the teacher.
In the Indian scriptures there are also texts saying that if the student
finds the teacher, due to any circumstances, falling from the ideals,
then such a teacher should be abandoned.
So, spiritual teachers have to be perfect. They are alive even in this
day, but prefer to live in obscurity and anomymity. Such are the
times that we live in.
Cheers and love to all
Ashanka
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:15:00 -0500
From: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospambryant.edu>
To: Bob Trevithick <rtrevATnospamredsuspenders.com>
CC: Richard Wentk <richardATnospamskydancer.com>, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Enlightenment?
Message-ID: <34FACCF4.88498F2CATnospambryant.edu>
Bob Trevithick wrote:
> Harsha,
>
> Do you not feel that there's some truth in the old saying that we
> teach best that which we most need to learn?
Harsha answers: Perhaps? But what does that mean? God only knows what that
means! Without Spiritual Knowledge, a teacher may use the words, but the subtle
spiritual power to convey the meaning is not behind them. Certainly even some
Books are Alive, if they contain the thoughts of a Realized Saint! Even such a
Book can serve as a Guru (depending on the faith of a devotee) and the
transmission may take place.
> Bob asks: Can't the teacher share the teachings, and then progress with them
> and
> develop along with the students?
Harhsa answers: Why not? That is the usual situation anyway.
>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:12:35 EST
From: Uni8077 <Uni8077ATnospamaol.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: another quest..
Message-ID: <1b4161fd.34facc65ATnospamaol.com>
In a message dated 98-03-01 18:24:49 EST, caradeepaATnospamhotmail.com writes:
<< I was wondering if anyone has found a connection between
Candida...and kundalini...
>>
I am also interested in this. I usually just lurk here in the hopes of
learning more about Kundalini. I was diagnosed about 2 years ago with
Candida, so the answer will be of interest to me also.
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