1998/01/03 21:11
kundalini-l-d Digest V98 #3
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 3
Today's Topics:
Re: Other Paths? [ "Gloria Lee" <samyanaATnospamhotmail.com> ]
Death and Illness [ iri <iriATnospamivyrealty.com> ]
The Soul Factor [ Ruth Trimble <trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu> ]
Re: Science [ Daniel James Giszczak <danjgATnospamengin. ]
MUST [ Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com> ]
Re: Vastness [ Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant ]
Re:Heredity [ anandajyoti <anandajyotiATnospamgeocities. ]
Re: MUST [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
Re: Heredity [ Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.co ]
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 10:41:21 PST
From: "Gloria Lee" <samyanaATnospamhotmail.com>
To: gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com
Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Other Paths?
Message-ID: <19980103184123.22765.qmailATnospamhotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>
>Kurt wrote:
>>But as I have said before there are other paths where the direct
arousal
>>of the Kundalini is not an antecedent to Realization.
>(I believe Harsha has elsewhere supported this view, also..G.LEE)
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++and
Gene K. wrote: +=
>
>I don't quite understand what is meant here by "other paths."
Regardless
>of whatever "path" one chooses to follow, or whether one chooses not to
>follow any path, if that person achieves Enlightenment or
Self-Realization,
>or Cosmic Consciousness, he or she must have awakened Kundalini.
>
>Gene
>To Gene.. from Gloria Lee asking...
>Why?? Why any must?? Say, for example, as I did a study of Wm.Blake-
and his poetry and drawings provide me with clues that he had attained
some form of cosmic consciousness. Why then am I entitled or (in your
case required) to assume that some process of Kundalini occurred and was
thus responsible ??? Given already the many varieties of experience with
and reactions to Kundalini..even when it is identified and recognized...
actually, Gene I am still waiting for an answer from you about the tie
in with mental illness..heredity..I still say that all of this you are
saying ASSUMES first a premise that God-realization
(cosmic-consciousness) is like some readily identifiable and easily
identified state..and by your terms I suppose IT has to become a
constant state also to REALLY count. Ultimately tho, this seems very
LIMITING to me. I see clues and glimpses in poetry..little god-jokes
jump out at me from TV even..its everywhere gosh-darn it once you begin
to learn to see IT. The varieties of religious experience alone..let
alone that actually ALL of life is a spiritual teacher... so, limiting
realization to Kundalini or conversely assuming it has occurred is just
a sneaky way to eliminate and divide experience. Where is God NOT???
Ok, I'll cut you some slack here and admit we need to use words to
identify of what we speak..but just HOW you are making these connections
and exclusions about Kundalini really baffles me..Its so like all or
nothing..its linked to heredity in some obscure way..but some obvious
divinely inspired music may have no relation to K-activity, so then it
is not God-realized?? We aren't referring to some like 80% vs 100%
concept are we??Whatever are you saying?? If not this.. please
clarify..perhaps I have totally misunderstood what you appear to be
saying. (it wouldn't be the first time..) I will now even admit that I
may have some quirky bias of my own operating here..the only constant is
change (our conscious awareness at the very least). Gene, my basic
problem with all this analysis and efforting activity..is just that it
contradicts almost all my experience. Gee, it FEELS like God is and has
been doing all the work.. doing everything to get my attention..so its
more like surrender and awareness to experience works for me.. So
teaching Kundalini is no different than teaching art..no guarantees of
results either way...yet once you learn to see *ART* is everywhere
too..heheh..are you having fun yet, Gene??? LOVE, Glo
______________________
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Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 11:16:07 -0800
From: iri <iriATnospamivyrealty.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Death and Illness
Message-Id: <199801032015.OAA23535ATnospamsmtp1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hmmmm....Xmas has come and gone and so has new year's eve...for some these
events are something to celebrate and so are taken for granted...Yesterday I
returned to my office and found a note under my door. It said a book had
been left for me at my next door neighbour's office. Fine...I walked next
door and wished the receptionist happy new year. She said it wasn't even a
happy xmas...naturally I asked why. She said her brother was in ac ar
accident. He died. his passenger survived. For a reason the police have yet
not determined his car hit a telephone pole.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a strain of flu (i think) going around. At my new year's eve party,
my wife wasn't feeling well, neither was an architect friend of mine. After
the party he went home as usual. My wife went to sleep as usual but slept
virtually straight thru for 39 hours. I got a telephone call from the
architect yesterday. He just woke up around 2:00 P.M. yesterday...Don't know
what this bacteria or virus is, but it is unusually hard on one's system if
you start off in good health...watch yourselves...stay healthy
I don't get sick often and wonder if it has something to do with kundalini.
I get sniffles and they go away within hours or I get a cough and it is gone
within hours.
I can not remember the last time i had to stay in bed for any length of time
due to illness (other than when i was recoverying from surgery for 1/2 a
day---again I recovered amazingly fast by most people's standards)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:34:20 -1000
From: Ruth Trimble <trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: The Soul Factor
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.980103110300.20520G-100000ATnospamuhunix4>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi Cannot help but jump into this debate about K. awakening being ANYTHING
at all to do with hereditary factors.. and thank Anandajyoti for his wise
and reasoned counter view.
>>>>All the rest depends on the very personal
predisposition of the person in question. Self determination is more of an
influence in the process, and as this is also true in any material
aspirations, which may not have any connection with spirituality at all.
>>
I do not know where I got my knowledge of how ludicrous it is to think
that the genetic factors of a 3rd dimensional body have anything to do
with K. awakening, but this is how it strikes me...misguided and confused
would be the words that come to mind. I can only look at my 3 siblings
and see how much we share the same genetic nature, yet have lead entirely
disparate lives, entirely different spiritual attainments and goals...from
the same environmental soup! I look at my sister, Jo, who is identical to
me in her physical nature.. she could be my twin.. we have the same
everything.. except she is a tad taller. We have had the same ailments at
the same periods of our lives, and we wear our hair exactly the same and
both of us swim every day of ourlives.. me in the ocean of Hawaii and she
in the country club in England. It is almost uncanny!
But from my earliest memories as a babe I wanted to become
God-realized..it has driven me all my life. I am sure the K. awakening was
because of that inner call...the spirit or soul factor.
That inner call has NOTHING to do with my genetic material...my DNA or
family tree. It was ME.. IT was my soul, my agreement with my oversoul
and my higher self. IT was PRIOR to my birth in this genetic material.
I remember the agreements I made to come into this form.. I have the
memory of this conversation. So for me I have proof that I was set on the
K. awakening before I ever got this genetic material. I cannot prove this
to anyone else, but I am quite satisfied with this understanding and have
seen this verifiedin the experiences of many other people.
What Mr. Kieffer's view appears to overlook is how the physical is a
DIMENSION in which spirit enters. IT is not the
other way round! The spirit has no boundaries, no limitations. It
agrees to enter the form .. in this case 3D... and take on limitations in
order to have experiences of itself. Many can also experience spirit
as able to inhabit not only many many dimensions, but can be present in
many dimensions AT THE SAME TIME!
In other words, I can be having a
lifetime as Ruth in this dimension.. and be having a lifetime (or whatever
one would call it there) in several other dimensions simultaneously.
I am also able to be a 3rd dimensional being in a physical body and having
all the painful and confusing experiences of that, YET at the same time,
be able to converse with angels, travel to distance galaxies and also be
totally at ONE with the Source of All. All of this is the play of spirit.
I see the 3rd dimension is one of God's little playgrounds with certain
toys laid out for us to play with.. and God wants to see "How will it be
to be "Ruth" playing this game now with X, Y and Z?" But if Ruth becomes
too aware of the fact that God is playing the game "THROUGH" her, she is
not really as involved as she might be if she really knew nothing about
God. God sort of loses interest in having this game played for the "Game
is up!" if you know what I mean! Unless Ruth in 3D really is unaware of
being God's nature entirely, then the game is just not the same is it? It
loses its spice! It loses its drama and urgency!
What happens next we must all experience for ourselves...
Sorry so long..
Gene manages to confuse things a lot. It almost seems that God as Gene is
trying to stir things up a bit! And I am joining in the game!
Hmmmmm.
*****
Aloha...from an 83* sunny day in the Pacific!
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:45:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Daniel James Giszczak <danjgATnospamengin.umich.edu>
To: David Bozzi <david.bozziATnospamsnet.net>
cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Science
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980103173038.23612A-100000ATnospamazure.engin.umich.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Are you concerned more for the world,
> Or what doing something useful for the world
> can do for you?
Taking care of myself is always my first priority. I have reached
a point in my life where I am comfortable with my position in society and
comfortable with the degree to which I have mastered myself. I also
believe that if I were dropped off alone, penniless, and friendless in any
place in America, I have the resources within me to create a satisfying
life for myself from scratch.
Since I have reached this point in my life, I realize that others
do not or can not enjoy life as much as I, and that I have the resources
and the desire to help them. I do not seek physical rewards. Although I
must make enough money to live, I am more concerned for the world.
Dan
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:11:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>
To: samyanaATnospamhotmail.com
Cc: Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com
Subject: MUST
Message-Id: <199801032311.SAA09972ATnospamdavinci.netaxis.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear Gloria Lee,
We readily agree that there are as many kinds of "religious
experience" as there are people. Music, a beautiful sunset, poetry,
an exquisite painting, etc., all can trigger a moment of revere that
sends shivers up our back. The Gallop Poll some years back did a survey
in which thousands of people were asked if they ever had a religous
experience. A very high percentage, perhaps 7 out of 10 or more, said
yes, they had.
So we are not disputing that almost everyone has the capacity
to experience the Divine in one form or another.
Also, we should make it clear, that we do not think that anyone
who has had a genuine Kundalini awakening should in any way feel the
least bit superior to others. In fact, they should feel the opposite.
Much more humble. There should be nothing of vanity or pride in the
experience or the process.
What began this discussion was the question: "How can science best
set about to verify the existence of Kundalini?"
So now we must try to separate our feelings from our intellect and
try our best to sort out what can be objectively verified.
There are some women who believe they are pregnant and go for
months believing that they are carrying a child in their womb, onlt to
learn to their utter disappointment that they are not really pregnant
at all. And I think we can all agree that no woman can give birth to
a child without first being impregnated by a male sperm. Of course,
science can translplant the egg, etc., etc. We need not go into that.
But really, pregnancy depends upon fertlization of the female ovum.
Likewise, Enlightenment, Cosmic Consciousness, Illumination (all
word for the same phenomenon) depends on the awakening of Kundalini.
My question to Kurt pertained to that. Does he believe that a person
can become Enlightened (Illuminated) without having awakened Kundalini?
You mention sublime musical compositions and other great works of
art and question whether they are in any way linked to Kundalini. I would
answer Yes! If we study the lives of the great composers, writers,
mathematicians, etc., I think we can find numerous signs that they had
awakened Kundalini.
Now, we must hasten to say that most of these men and women of
genius were born that way. In other words, they were born with their
Kundalini already awakened, so they felt nothing strange, no great
transformation
of consciousness or any other internal process that we associate with Kundalini.
The Creator of the Universe is not capricious. From all that I have
read I have become convinced that there are Spiritual Laws (Laws of Evolution)
as well as physical laws. We know that we cannot violate any physical law
with impunity, whether regard to our health or the construction of bridge,
a jet airliner, or whatever. We must adhere strictly to those physical laws
that apply. In exactly the same way, we must follow the Laws of Evolution, or
Spiritual Laws, in order to live lives of happiness and fulfillment.
The K. R. F. has never in its 28 years encouraged anyone to awaken
Kundalini. So far as we are concerned, anyone who develops his/her compassion,
integrity, honesty, love of fellow man, etc., is on the correct spiritual path.
Whether he or she awakens Kundalini is of no concern. Our primary interest in
Kundalini is its extremely far-reaching implications for the fate and destiny
of humanity.
Kundalini can awaken in anyone, either in a benign manner or in a
malignant manner. We think the knowledge of Kundalini should be made
universally known. We cannot understand the thinking of gurus who keep their
knowledge reserved for those who serve them or follow them. Einstein published
his theories, just as all other men and women of science publish their findings.
The K. R. F. has published more than a dozen books on Kundalini and has
done its best to make them widely available. What we cannot understand is the
lack of interest on the part of those who have awakened the Energy. One would
think they would like to become more knowledgeable so that they can speak in
precise and rational language about the phenomenon to their families, loved
ones,
friends, etc. A very large percentage of the letters we receive at the K.R.F.
begin by saying that they cannot talk to anyone about their experiences because
no one will understand. Such a letter just came in the mail today. I sent
the man a dozen magazine articles that have been read by hundreds of thousands
of people so that he would at least know that what he is experiencing is not
something that is entirely unknown.
We have submitted articles on Kundalini to a wide variety of magazines and
newspapers. We don't want Kundalini to be kept a secret. We want everyone
to know about. Kundalini people say that they don't think anyone will
understand
unless they have experienced what they have experienced. Nonsense.
You can't show people books written a century ago. They have to be books
and articles written by someone who has experienced Kundalini and has
assimilated
his/her experience with the knowledge handed down to us by the ancient sages
and adepts. The New York Times did run a couple of our articles, one quite
lengthy, in 1974, with a big headline, reading: "Beyond the Higher States of
Consciousness." It appeared in the New York Times on October 6, 1973.
New Age Magazines, however, just won't run any articles on Kundalini for
reasons that they alone know.
Anyone wishing to receive copies of these articles need only give us
his or her mailing address. We'll gladly send them free.
Sincerely,
gene
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 20:02:41 -0800
From: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
To: Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Cc: heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com
Subject: Re: Vastness
Message-Id: <34AF09E1.58BATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
> Harsh Luthar wrote:
> >
> > I find myself in agreement with Frans. Gopi Krishna's emphasis on
> > Kundalini as a biological evolutionary force is a very limited view of
> > the great Shakti. The Shakti is the fundamental Spiritual Force which
> > has physical, mental and psychic manifestations. These manifestations
> > cannot indicate or capture the depth of this Great Power which is only
> > realized when the Shakti completes its Journey and the Self is
> > Recognized. Yes, the Shakti is Maha Sarswati, the Goddess of Wisdom. She
> > makes one a poet, a scholar, and an orator. She is the bestower of High
> > Intelligence. She is the teacher in the subtle psychic realms. But the
> > Shakti is more than that. She is the Primal Absolute and Overwhelming
> > Beauty, all prevasive, call her what you want. Call her the Holy Spirit,
> > Call her the Goddess of Love, Call her Maheswari, Maha Lakshami, Maha
> > Kali, Tripura Sundari. What difference can a name make. She has far more
> > to bestow than mere "Genius." She Reveals God Consciousness at the
> > Center of Being. She makes one a devotee of the Great Lord of Life who
> > sits eternally in the Heart and is the Heart.
> >
> > Harsha
> ]
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gene responded:
> Virtually every word Harsha has written here was written and published
> numerous times by Gopi Krishna over the past thirty years.
> There is probably nothing that Harsha can write about Kundalini that has
> not already appeared in one or more of Gopi Krishna's books.
>Snip.....
Harsha responds: Gene, I speak from my own Shakti experiences only and
on spiritual matters usually do not quote from books (Gopi Krishna's or
anyone else). Perhaps you mean that the terms and concepts I use to
describe the Shakti experiences are similar to those used by many others
(Gopi Krishna being only one of the many thousands of writers on the
Kundalini). Certainly there is bound to be common vocabulary. I was born
in India and grew up in the Hindu, Jain and Buddhist Philosophies with
these concepts and terms. The Shakti terminology is second nature to me.
What other vocabulary would I use? Thousands and thousands of books had
been written prior to Gopi Krishna on the Kundalini in the Hindu, Jain
and Buddhist Tantric Traditions. Everything that Gopi Krishna wrote had
been covered in prior Kundalini literature (and much much more). So for
you to suggest that what I write is covered in Gopi Krishna's books is
somewhat misleading. It has all been covered long before Harsha or Gopi
Krishna came on the scene. The knowledge of a True Yogi is not book
knowledge. Such a person need not rely on what "others" said or wrote
but can talk spontaneously about the spiritual life from his own
Realization. I speak from my own Knowledge.
Harsha
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 17:47:53 -0800
From: anandajyoti <anandajyotiATnospamgeocities.com>
To: heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
CC: Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>, leydaATnospamvalunet.com
Subject: Re:Heredity
Message-ID: <34AEEA41.8587FF71ATnospamgeocities.com>
>>>>>>Gene Kieffer wrote:
> Dear Anandajyoti,
>
> Regarding heredity and its influence on ones life, one need only live
> long enough--past 50--to see for himself or herself what role heredity
> plays. <<<<<
Anandajyoti>Regarding heredity over age 50+ , I agree that as we mature,
physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually, all of us would have
different grades of perception of the same consciousness, at all these levels.
That is what I know as evolution of mankind.
But I also like to point out, that it is not heredity alone which affects it.
Our innate predispositions, (in Yoga we call them Samskaras) and the
environment in which we act or choose to act , everything has an influence of
what we are and how we to choose to manifest our essence (or the soul) in this
life. That , I think is one of the astounding difference of being human.
>>>>>Gene wrote:
But leaving metaphysics aside, I still believe as I did as a young boy, living
in a small agricultural town. The people who knew most about heredity were
the farmers. <<<<<
Anandajyoti:
This I do not doubt , that farmers knew from prehistoric times, about the
influence of heredity. In modern times we also find evidence of creating
hybrids of grains for multiple harvests, and better quality of food value,
etc.
But this has or never had any influence of the Kundalini as such. The
knowledge of farmers, par se, was the result of learning and understanding
the processes of nature, in terms of farming.
> >>>>Gene wrote:
> Aside from the fact that human beings have souls, the biological factors are
> about the same as they are for animals.<<<<<<
Anandajyoti:The way I look at it, is the whole creation, is the manifestation
of the conscious essence of the Universe, give it whatever name you may.
Although the biological factors of humans and animals are the same, yet in my
humble opinion, it is the creative essence of the universe, which manifests as
all, the difference being in the degree of the manifestation, but not in kind.
> >>>>>Gene wrote:
> But again, every individual, whether he or she has awakened Kundalini
> or not, will easily be able to see what role heredity is playing in his or
> her life sooner or later. <<<<<
Anandajyoti:There you go, whether kundalini is awakened or not, each of us
being having a biological component, have to take into account the influence
of heredity, yet we humans also have the mental, emotional and spiritual
components which are the add- ons to our biological component. These add ons
also to a great degree influence what we become. It's being and becoming, what
we are in the last analysis, how we manifest ourselves in relation to
ourselves and others around us.>>>>Gene wrote:
But in general, young people are more prone to downplay heredity. It is only
when they are up in years that they see, plain as the nose on their face, that
heredity was more of a factor than they might have suspected.
All the best,
gene<<<<<<<
Anandajyoti:
I am not down playing hereditary factors, but would rather say , it is a
component only, amongst the all the others, like mental, emotional and
spiritual.
All of our aspects are like different vectors, and from the combination we
derive a resultant which determines, how we choose to manifest our essence
within.
Kind regards,
Anandajyoti
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 17:51:08 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>
CC: samyanaATnospamhotmail.com, Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com,
heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com
Subject: Re: MUST
Message-ID: <34AE6C7B.5ADBATnospamintercomm.com>
> You can't show people books written a century ago. They have to be books
> and articles written by someone who has experienced Kundalini and has
> assimilated
> his/her experience with the knowledge handed down to us by the ancient sages
> and adepts. The New York Times did run a couple of our articles, one quite
> lengthy, in 1974, with a big headline, reading: "Beyond the Higher States of
> Consciousness." It appeared in the New York Times on October 6, 1973.
>
>
> Anyone wishing to receive copies of these articles need only give us
> his or her mailing address. We'll gladly send them free.
>
> Sincerely,
> gene
Gene, you have certainly provided the information to the public, I got
the books you mailed me today. I'm also sure that people have become
more aware of kundalini through your efforts at K.R. F., like anything
it takes a while to get the ball moving, I think in part since people
live in the ever changing movement of spirit, it is difficult to get
passionate about anything other then what is happening in that moment.
This is the essence of awakening being in that now. So, at any rate
thank you for the books. Gloria
>
>
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
&
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 18:27:58 +0100
From: Gloria Greco <lodpressATnospamintercomm.com>
To: anandajyoti <anandajyotiATnospamgeocities.com>
CC: heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, Kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com,
Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>, leydaATnospamvalunet.com
Subject: Re: Heredity
Message-ID: <34AE751B.76FATnospamintercomm.com>
Gene wrote:
>
> But in general, young people are more prone to downplay heredity. It is only
> when they are up in years that they see, plain as the nose on their face, that
> heredity was more of a factor than they might have suspected.
> All the best,
> gene<<<<<<<
>
> Anandajyoti:
> I am not down playing hereditary factors, but would rather say , it is a
> component only, amongst the all the others, like mental, emotional and
> spiritual.
> All of our aspects are like different vectors, and from the combination we
> derive a resultant which determines, how we choose to manifest our essence
> within.
> Kind regards,
> Anandajyoti
Gloria:
Actually what defines the road more then anything is the memory of
soul/spirit in relationship to the body. When one remembers as a child
that he/she is using the body for growth and experience it is very easy
to move along with whatever is happening in life. And, in part the
realization is also that you have choosen a certain life situation to
enhance the over all experience. This connects us in to those we come to
be with, but what more then anything decides how we see and experience
is the soul memory.
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco
e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/
&
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/
Hope you enjoy them!
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