1997/12/23 11:40
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #856
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 856
Today's Topics:
Re: Another Perspective [ Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.c ]
RE: for Codrin - various views [ Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.c ]
Re: Urdhvaretas,New Age, Gopi Krishn [ HJTA1342 <HJTA1342ATnospamaol.com> ]
RE: Action/Reaction : Cause /Effect [ Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.c ]
RE: Deja Vu, a glimpse into the futu [ Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.c ]
RE: 48 hrs $ [ Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.c ]
Kriya [ "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, M ]
RE: 48 hrs $ [ Mike Stickles <msticklesATnospamantalys.co ]
I am not unkown trancfer my email. [ "Arco International" <arcoATnospamisb.comp ]
Raymond's heart surgery [ iri <iriATnospamivyrealty.com> ]
Re: Urdhava-retas [ Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant ]
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:51:28 +1100 (EDT)
From: Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com, kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Another Perspective
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971223233214.29057I-100000ATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Harsh Luthar wrote:
> student, I am good, I am a husband, I am a wife, I went here, etc. Who
> is this I?
>
> Who is the I that sees, dreams or has visions. Who is the I that reads
> other people's minds, their akashik records, and their past lives etc.
> Without understanding the nature of the I, and resolving the mystery of
As usual rationality and science helps. Lets look at it in terms of
instinctual I, intellectual I and intuitive I and and the Source of these
the differentiation of I.
There are
various qualifications/differentiations of 'I'.
There is the 'done I' or 'objective I' of a unit-mind. It is primarily
instinctual.
All perceptions, whether seen or heard, etc, of an individual remain
unperceived unless the 'done I' identifies itself with their reflections on itself. If this
does not happen then there is no perception.
By the attraction towards subtlety, there develops the 'doer I' or 'owner
I' cognition.
And by the attraction of even more introversive force or desire for
subtle understanding/knowledge there is the predominance of pure I
feeling - I am.
If the periphery of 'doer I' is greater than that of the 'done I', the
surplus is called Intellect.
If the dimension of the pure I feeling (I am) is greater than that of
the 'doer I' feeling, the surplus part is called Intuition.
Therefore, it may be discernible in the undeveloped organisms or
plants that the manifestation of 'done I' only has taken place but not of
'doer I' or 'I am'.
It may also be that in the undeveloped organisms or creepers and shrubs
the
manifestation of 'I am' has not taken place but those of 'doer I' and
'done I' have. Consequently some animals have a semblance of intelligence
or intellect and so are not to be killed - they are evolving.
In comparatively developed organisms, and possiblity even some plants,
and shrubs as well as
human beings, all the three, 'done I', 'doer I' and 'I am' (pure I feeling)
get manifested.
After continued practice when I am or I feeling gets metamorphosed into
Macrocosmic I-feeling, the done I of the microcosmic mind merges in doer
I and doer I merges in I am - ie a progressive of upward subjectivity
where I am is the same Macrocosmic I feeling. This is the first
lesson of meditation leading to the realisation of Saguna Brahma,
Savikalpa Samadhi. When the done I merges in doer I
and doer I in I am (equating with Macrocosmic I feeling) there is the state
of all-pervasiveness of I am which constitutes the State of
Transcendentality (The 'trance'/awareness of determinate absorption -
Savikalpa Samadhi).
Instead of the practice/meditation of installing the I am in the
Macrocosmic I am ( the totally absorbed state of I am), after the merger
of the sense of
ego (pure I-feeling) in the Supreme Non-attributional Consciousness (where
there is not even Macrocosmic I am), that is in the State of
Objectlessness one reaises the Nirguna Brahma (The trance/awareness of
indeterminate absorption or total suspension of the
mind - Nirvikalpa Samadhi). Due to the absence of any binding principle
this state is called the
state of Objectlessness. This state is verbally inexpressible because....
This state of objectlessness being beyond the orbit of mind, it is not
mentally apprehensible. It is the Absolute Bliss where there is no knower
or known.
Is not the innate characteristic or urge of all human beings
the quest for infinite happiness.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:53:51 +1100
From: Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au>
To: "'Blizzard'" <dcondreaATnospampcnet.pcnet.ro>,
"'kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com'"
<kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: RE: for Codrin - various views
Message-ID: <01BD1000.92C57360.d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu>
Hi,
Codrin, seemed to be a bit of a problem with my email - actually haven't
received any k-list postings for some time either. Seems fixed now.
On Tuesday, December 23, 1997 12:45 AM, Blizzard [SMTP:dcondreaATnospampcnet.pcnet.ro]
wrote:
> >Who is the guru?
> He is not a famous person.
>
> Fame is hardly important. Although was twice nominated for the Nobel Prize,
founded the Tantric School of Studies at a new university (still affiliated
with well established one - but forgotten which) in Purulia, West Bengal area.
Also another uni has started a
Chair in his socio-economic thought as well. People like John Galtung etc are
all keen researchers in this field.
> >On the path of spirituality bhava or ideation is the main factor. Tantra
> >explains bha'va as follows, "Bha'va is a mental tendency".
>
> I think it's bhavana, and also this it's well described in shavaism
> tradition. (Siva Sutra)
'Bhavana' is ideation or flow of the mind, true, although I often see the
shortened 'version'.
Actually, though 'bhava' also has to do with mind and in that sense I have seen
it as the reactive momenta or samskaras of the mind. So they say that the
ocean of Bhava is hard to cross because of the reactions to actions that must
be undergone.
In another sense BHA'VA = the expression of the Cosmic Mind, the expressed
Universe of vibrational thought waves, ie Sagun'a Brahma. In that sense
ideation on the Infinite Cosmic Mind is bhava (I understand).
The spiritual aspirant has God as one's sole bha'va in work, service and
sacrifice. That very ideation of the Cosmic Mind leads them to liberation of
the mind (mukti), for their minds have God as their object. Actually, of
course, as everything is within the Supreme Consciousness is it not a fact that
really that the Supreme Consciousness is the only Subjectivity and everything
else is Its internal object.
> Bauddha Jnana and Pausrusha Jnana are the names in shaivism
> tradition for mental knowledge and practice konwledge.
> How far are you on your way. Can you stop you mind an dmeditate in
> peace?
At times this comes easily at other not so easy. In particular during
collective meditation, which is a must for any spiritual aspirant, the
collective stillness allows for immense experience. Better though is chanting
and spiritual dancing (kiirtana) - although there is a lot of music
nevertheless it is very sweet and blissful - particularly collectively.
Of course, one can never say how good a meditation is because it all depends on
what reactive momenta or samskaras are being burnt up as well. Fact is that
some of us have to undergo harsher things than others and the same is true in
meditation. So peace in meditation is achievable certainly, but also everyone
has their reactions to actions to go through and meditation does release these
as well and so peace is not there also.
All in all it matters little because everything in this process is God's Grace
and so devotion will surmount all obstacles. Obstacles in fact should be
welcome - they are not foes but friends on the path of meditation. No-one
should fear anything and effort will surmount everything.
As for peace of mind that must also come with peace of body, so to speak. In
essence that means control of chakras or rather transcendence of the
propensities associated with them. There are lessons for this - but if one is
not ready for them (eg there is still devotion and love for the Divine to
develop) then better to wait. Various lesssons can easily calm the lower
chakras, in fact the first five chakras (but 5th chakra has much to do with
sounds and language and so a bit different). Actually it is quite easy to
transcend lower propensities because the Divine Love that is awakened is far
superior to any pleasures of the organs (not that this can be denied [at least
for householders like myself] in any case but it certainly plays a secondary
role). But much depends also on external environment, eg heavy day at the
office (and hassles with other lawyers) can give rise to more tension and this
impacts on the chakras - nevertheless even then with proper ideation this is
less 'impactful'.
> Phowa is the amaizing transfer of conscience.
I've never come across this term before. What is its source/origin?
Few reference in
> Siva shamhita, Tantra sara, Tantraloka. This it's the easyes way to
> enlightment. see Shiva shamhita 137, 138, and next.
I actually haven't read any of these. I doubt if there is any easy way to
enlightenment. Enlightenment means permanent liberation of mind and that means
surrending all sense of I-feeling - and that is also a lot to do with Divine
Grace. One can have samadhis now and then but what use are these if permanent
liberation is not the goal or achievement. One actually needs no samadhis in
this lifetime even - except of course the one Final. Essentially, it all comes
down to devotion. I'd say it would be difficult to move past second chakra
without devotion, ie development of Divine Love internally as the essence of
one's life and externally through service as a necessary adjustment.
dieter
Away til end of Jan 98 - partly on a mediation retreat. See ya next year.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:02:51 EST
From: HJTA1342 <HJTA1342ATnospamaol.com>
To: keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu, hummer13ATnospamearthlink.net,
anandajyotiATnospamgeocities.com, lodpressATnospamintercomm.com
Cc: gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com,
kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Urdhvaretas,New Age, Gopi Krishna etc.
Message-ID: <ce4a37f8.349fc48eATnospamaol.com>
If Gene Kieffer wants a list of books, he may want to look at the posts to the
k-list for the last month. Several good books have been mentioned by various
people including Harsha. Gene Kieffer believes that "Urdhvaretas separates the
men from the boys". I can see why he and Harsha are on different wavelengths.
Gene seems to view the field of Kundalini in terms of professional wrestling.
Some are more muscular than others. Perhaps that is a valid view. Harsha,
while willing to discuss the details of the Kundalini phenomena and admitting
that kundalini manifestations will differ from person to person, keeps coming
back to the essence of the experience of the Self.
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:27:21 +1100
From: Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au>
To: "'Ruth Trimble'" <trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu>,
"kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com"
<kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: RE: Action/Reaction : Cause /Effect
Message-ID: <01BD1008.59CF9100.d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu>
On Tuesday, December 23, 1997 12:55 PM, Ruth Trimble [SMTP:trimbleATnospamhawaii.edu]
wrote:
However, if one acts in accordance with the
> will of the divine... as a divine emissary shall we say, or in tune with
> the tao if you prefer this language.. then there is no REACTION to suffer
> for all reaction returns to the divine.
Ruth, I covered this 'honey knowledge' (ie madhuvidya) in another post a while
back. True if the ideation of action and thoughts is that it is of the divine
and the doer and action and results are of the divine then there can be no
consequential reaction to the actioner. Unfortunately, I'm leaving for
holidays in a day's time and so wll have to leave it at that. Yes would most
certainly like to discuss this further - but time prevents right now.
cheers
dieter
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:35:47 +1100
From: Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au>
To: "'Nancy'" <NancyATnospamwtp.net>, kundalini-1 <kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: RE: Deja Vu, a glimpse into the future
Message-ID: <01BD1008.5ED14E00.d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu>
Again, I'd like to respond but will have to wait til end of jan 98 as I'll out
of this city and into the rainforest in a day so no computer. But yes I can
see what your saying and yes some dreams can be psychic - why? has to wait.
cheers
dieter
On Monday, December 22, 1997 5:54 PM, Nancy [SMTP:NancyATnospamwtp.net] wrote:
> Nancy [NancyATnospamwtp.net]
> kundalini-1
> Interesting explanation of dreams. I sometimes have the disjointed,
> psychological cleansing dreams which you talked about. But Dieter, I am
> now experiencing dreams which move beyond the "sensual" dreams. I
> frequently recognize the energy of an event/person which is later
> validated. This is happening in both sleeping and waking states.
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:59:00 +1100
From: Dieter Dambiec <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au>
To: "'Mike Stickles'" <msticklesATnospamantalys.com>,
"kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com"
<kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com>
Subject: RE: 48 hrs $
Message-ID: <01BD1008.7ACED500.d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu>
On Tuesday, December 23, 1997 5:26 AM, Mike Stickles
[SMTP:msticklesATnospamantalys.com] wrote:
> I used to think of the idea of Nirvana or
> "permanent samadhi" or whatever as an escapist belief to avoid the
> unpleasantries of the reality of hell.
You're not seriously suggesting there is such a place are you. This is the
21st Century we are getting into.
There exists no such thing as heaven or hell. When a person does a virtuous act
or enjoys the fruits thereof, the environment around him/her is then called
heaven and when s/he does an evil act and endures the consequences thereof,
then the environment around him becomes a hell for him/her.
If you want to look at it that way.
> I've since learned that it stems
> from a different worldview than I possess. I can disagree without
> contempt because I know something of the origins of the idea and the
> worldview it springs from. I wish I could expect the same consideration
> in the other direction.
Again, I give no credence to the hell idea - plain and simple dogma. The world
view that the earth is flat falls into the same category. It is plain
delusion. One can simply not bow to dogma.
dieter
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 9:44:11 -0500 (EST)
From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services" <PAULATnospamlouisville.lib.ky.us>
To: KUNDALINI-LATnospamEXECPC.COM
CC: PAULATnospamlouisville.lib.ky.us
Subject: Kriya
Message-Id: <971223094411.1c73ATnospamlouisville.lib.ky.us>
Please forgive me. I'm having a kriya...
**************
AN OPEN LETTER TO VICE PRESIDENT ALBERT GORE
This planet is too hot
Under the collar
There's this thing in the air
This energy
These clouds
This jet-stream
Whipping around the globe
Like a cobra on crack
Don't look at me
I didn't do it
It's not my fault
I'm not responsible
No way
I'm just an innocent bystander
It used to be chronic fatigue
TMJ
Carpal Tunnel
Codependency
And now
A new, improved collective scapegoat
Replacing all medical conditions
All emotional distress
Entire economic ethnic racial classes
A trendy environmental crisis
Soon to graduate
To blatant projection
El Nino stalked my old girlfriend
El Nino crashed my car
El Nino cancelled my insurance
El Nino ran up a fortune
On my cell phone
El Nino bought the farm
Plowed the fields
And sold out to Tobacco Interests
El Nino ate my homework
Alienated my affection
Had my baby in a manger
Next to Elvis
El Nino is as powerful
As any unseen diety
Hovering over undiscovered volcanoes
Rising from the ocean floor
Heralding the arrival of Atlantis
El Nino thrashes in hot currents
Grinning like a demented
Cheshire Sea Monster
Its teeth flashing everytime the sun
Catches a wave
Saying,
"Go ahead, asshole!
Blame me! Blame me for everything!
Heap the abuse on me
I can take it!
As a matter of fact
I LIKE IT!
I THINK ITS GROOVY!"
El Nino toils not
But he sure as hell spins
Pretty soon El Nino
Will be spinning the earth
Out of its orbit
And into
The Giant Red Spot
On Jupiter
And then all of creation
Will be plunged into
Some pus ridden pock mark
On the neck of Zeus
El Nino is the reason
my life sucks
After all,
Why should I give up
Victimization
El Nino is doing this to me
My inner
Biological/circadian gyroscope
Cant take it, and
This is just too much,
Too much
Paul McDonald (c) 1997
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:54:40 -0500
From: Mike Stickles <msticklesATnospamantalys.com>
To: "d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu" <d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au>
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: RE: 48 hrs $
Message-ID: <B982B2DC7C0ED111804600805F850AB21D8F57ATnospamEX-DENVER-U1>
Content-Type: text/plain
Dieter wrote:
> You're not seriously suggesting there is such a
> place are you. This is the 21st Century we are
> getting into.
Hell is not a place in the way that, say, Jacksonville is a place, or
the moon is a place. We are not dealing with our visible universe of
space-time. Call it a state, or realm, or whatever you like. "Heaven"
and "hell" are outside of the flow of time and the universe of space as
we experience them.
> Again, I give no credence to the hell idea - plain
> and simple dogma. The world view that the earth
> is flat falls into the same category. It is plain
> delusion. One can simply not bow to dogma.
So, if it's dogma, it's wrong? Logical fallacy, my friend. Something is
*wrong* only if it fails to conform to reality; it has nothing to do
with the way it's labeled. Some dogmas are wrong; others are right. I
don't *bow* to dogma; but neither will I rebel against it automatically.
I will *agree* with a dogma if I am convinced that it conforms to
reality, and disagree otherwise.
Just accept that we are coming from different underlying premises
regarding the Bible and God (apparently including the nature of justice,
love, wrath, mercy and His expression of them), and let's leave it at
that for now. I'm sure we could sustain a theological debate for a few
dozen posts, but I see little chance of any significant light coming
from it. If you really want to, we could always take it to Belief-L (the
personal ideology mailing list) after you get back.
As for me, I'm going to try an experiment. Since I've always felt an
irresistible urge to debate with anyone I disagree with on any
significant issue and explain my position (usually in detail), I'm going
to attempt (through at least the end of January) to leave it at
mentioning my viewpoint, and abjuring any explanation. It seems that
when talking about Kundalini, it often helps to know *what* the
different viewpoints are that we're coming from, but *why* we hold to
them isn't usually that relevant to the discussion. Let me know,
anybody, if you catch me in a detailed explanation. I think there is an
"attachment" here that I need to lose.
BTW - Dieter - Enjoy your trip! See you (figuratively, of course) in
February.
- Mike
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dieter Dambiec [SMTP:d.dambiecATnospamstudent.canberra.edu.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 6:59 AM
> To: 'Mike Stickles'; kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
> Subject: RE: 48 hrs $
>
> On Tuesday, December 23, 1997 5:26 AM, Mike Stickles
> [SMTP:msticklesATnospamantalys.com] wrote:
> > I used to think of the idea of Nirvana or
> > "permanent samadhi" or whatever as an escapist belief to avoid the
> > unpleasantries of the reality of hell.
>
> You're not seriously suggesting there is such a place are you. This
> is the
> 21st Century we are getting into.
>
> There exists no such thing as heaven or hell. When a person does a
> virtuous act
> or enjoys the fruits thereof, the environment around him/her is then
> called
> heaven and when s/he does an evil act and endures the consequences
> thereof,
> then the environment around him becomes a hell for him/her.
>
> If you want to look at it that way.
>
>
> > I've since learned that it stems
> > from a different worldview than I possess. I can disagree without
> > contempt because I know something of the origins of the idea and the
> > worldview it springs from. I wish I could expect the same
> consideration
> > in the other direction.
>
> Again, I give no credence to the hell idea - plain and simple dogma.
> The world
> view that the earth is flat falls into the same category. It is plain
>
> delusion. One can simply not bow to dogma.
>
> dieter
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:49:02 +0500
From: "Arco International" <arcoATnospamisb.compol.com>
To: <Kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com>
Subject: I am not unkown trancfer my email.
Message-Id: <199712231613.VAA05137ATnospamisb.compol.com>
My name is CH. NADEEM A. RAUF
my new email number is ch_nadeemaATnospam yahoo.com
If you don't want to transfer my number then please cancel it from mailing
list.
If you can't then tell me the procedure that how can I cancel my email
number from your mailing list please help me I AM VERY VERY UPSET. from so
many mails on this mailing numbers and I don't have any interest in this
subject ( Kundalini-l ) . Please Please Please help me out of this big
problem. I shall be very very thankful to you.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:11:26 -0800
From: iri <iriATnospamivyrealty.com>
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Raymond's heart surgery
Message-Id: <199712231811.MAA19096ATnospamsmtp1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To all those kind people who prayed for Raymond to have a successful heart
operation and a speedy recovery, You might like to know that the operation
was a success. Done on Friday. Recovering nicely. Doctor may release Raymond
from the hospital on Thursday or Friday. Of course the healing process will
take months. Vein(s?) had to be taken from one of his legs to replace a bad
portion of an artery to his heart. So his leg and his chest and his heart
must heal over a period of several months. The degree of seriousness WAS
that if blood had ceased to flow through that artery, he could have died
within 3 minutes (that is what the doctor explained to Raymond and his
family). I don't know the particulars about it, however, it does not matter
anymore as the scare and worry no longer exist.
Raymond's wife and daughter (and of course the rest of his family) are
breathing easier now and even starting to smile and joke again.
Thank You for praying for Raymond.
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:58:47 -0800
From: Harsh Luthar <hlutharATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
To: Gene Kieffer <gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com>
Cc: hlutharATnospambryant.edu, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com,
kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Urdhava-retas
Message-Id: <34A02607.4FF4ATnospamkeynes.bryant.edu>
Dear Gene, you need not call me Dr. Luthar (note the a in the spelling
of Luthar). Plain Harsha is fine. If I were to see you face to face I
would embrace you as if you were my brother. My irritation with you was
temporary and I am very sorry if I injured your feelings in any way. You
are a good and a decent person doing things which you believe in. I
respect you and respect the fact that we have differing orientations. I
do not think, however, any further conversation between us on this topic
will be productive. It seems like anything I say, you interpret in a
particular way. You are very protective of Gopi Krishna and continue
insisting that I am not familiar with his work. You also seem to imply
that I am disrespectful of Gopi Krishna. I have told you Gene that it is
not so. What more can Harsha do? Harsha wishes he could soothe your pain
and that you would be at Peace. All the work that you have done on
behalf of Gopi Krishna and in the field of Kundalini will never be
wasted. The life and legacy of Gopi Krishna will continue to be known in
the future. Therefore be at ease and be at peace.
God bless you in abundance Gene with all good things in life. Let all
your sorrows dry and Joy should overwhelm your being. I only have the
purest feelings for you.
Always yours in Friendship and Love
Harsha
Gene Kieffer wrote:
>
> Dear Dr. Luther,
>
> With the exception of perhaps--perhaps--one or two, I have read
> all of the well-known books you mention. All of them. And a great
> many more.
>
> But why do you persist in bringing in Gopi Krishna, especially
> when you haven't read his books? If you had read even one of his
> books you would not say what you do. I do agree that it is possible
> that you have read something about him or some pages in one of his
> books, but you have either forgotten what you read or are putting
> words in his mouth for your own reasons. You say Urdhava-retas predates
> Gopi Krishna by thousands of years. By saying this you are making
> it sound as though he pretended to invent the term and the phenomenon
> both. When as a matter of record he has said exactly what you yourself
> are saying, only he said it many years before. How can you expect
> someone to accept what you say, or imply, when you can substantiate
> it and when the record exists to refute it?
>
> Can you imagine that I don't know, and that Gopi Krishna did not
> know, that Urdhava-retas was known in ancient times. He has often
> referred to the Indus Valley Civilization as having had in-depth
> knowledge of Urdhava-retas. It's in his books!!!! This is
> incredible. He states over and over again in his writings that
> Urdhava-retas was well-known by the ancient sages of rishis of
> India. After all, he was a native of Kashmir, one of the greatest
> centers for this knowledge.
>
> I was taught that humility was the mark of an Enlightened person.
> Was I taught wrong? Anyone can say he has experienced this or that.
> It's done every day by thousands of Kundalini people. If everyone
> were in the state of consciousness they say they are, or if everyone had
> experienced what he/she says he has, there would be no need for scientific
> research on Kundalini. I cannot say what you have or have not
> experienced. Only you can say it.
>
> But that is why scientific research on mystical experience is
> so important. There are the Jim Jones and many other cult leaders who
> have bamboozled their followers into believing that they are in direct
> contact with Divinity, or with the Pleiadians, the Star Sirius, or
> the little men with big almond-shaped eyes. A lot of people believe
> these people when they say these things. But does that make it so?
>
> Scholars and scientists simply do not accept everybody's word on
> what they have or have not experienced. I can say whatever I please,
> also, but what does not make it so. What matters is that scientists and
> scholars come to know about Kundalini through verifiable demonstrations.
>
> One would think that a man who has experienced what you have and
> has read the thousands of books on spiritual matters that you
> have would be in the forefront of a scientific investigation
> of Kundalini, which is, as most everyone knows, the greatest gift
> India can bestow on mankind. One would think that a native of India
> would be so proud of his heritage that he would do whatever he could
> possibly do to bring this sacred knowledge to the attention of the
> entire world. There are so many multimillionaire gurus in India and
> from India that they could underwrite the cost of the research without
> even tapping the principal of financial holdings. The interest earned
> in just one year would be much more than needed to do the research.
>
> But this has not yet been done. I wonder why? You would render a
> service by explaining why the gurus of India, both their and here, have
> not spearheaded the scientific investigation of Kundalini. They know
> Kundalini exists. We know it, too. We know that Urdhava-retas predates
> Gopi Krishna by thousands of years, he knew it and said so in most all
> of his books. If you had read even one of them, you would know it, also.
>
> That's settled. We now all know it. But we don't know why you and
> the gurus of India are not interested in this investigation. Every
> single guru from Aurobindo on and long, long before, has called
> Kundalini the sacred science. Okay, so it is sacred, we agree. But
> is it a science? Or is that just hot air?
>
> You said the idea of scientifically investigating Kundalini, in a
> manner acceptable to Western scientists, is a "fantasy."
>
> Okay, that's your opinion. Stand behind it. I certainly respect you
> for having that opinion. Enlighten us, please, by explaining why it is
> a fantasy. I believe that everyone who has participated thus far in
> these discussions would be interested in hearing from you why you
> believe that it is impossible to scientifically demonstrate the
> existence of Kundalini. You did mention to Don that his idea of
> a spinal tap was unique, but I am not certain whether you said it was
> of value. Do you or do you not think a spinal tap would prove that
> Urdhava-retas has altered the composition of the spinal fluid? At
> this point we need not concern ourselves with the practicality of
> the procedure, only whether it has merit as a hyopthesis.
>
> With all best wishes,
> Gene Kieffer
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