1997/12/22 21:13
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #854
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 854
Today's Topics: Action/Reaction : Cause /Effect [ Ruth Trimble ]
Re: Urdhava-retas [ Ruth Trimble ] RE: Proof [ Kurt Keutzer ]
Re: Urdhava-retas [ destinyATnospamcyberramp.net ] Urdhvaretas,New Age, Gopi Krishna et [ Kurt Keutzer ]
Re: Urdhvaretas,New Age, Gopi Krishn [ Tantrika ] Good Breathwork Center [ Teresa ]
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:54:50 -1000 From: Ruth Trimble
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Action/Reaction : Cause /Effect
Message-ID:
Hi Dieter:
I enjoyed your post about the Noumenal and the phenomenal.. and thought it was inspired. I have a point that might open a new
awareness on this issue for you and it is influenced by the Bhagavad Gita: You say: >>According to the laws of Nature/Creative Force every action has
a reaction which has to be experienced by the person who performs the action. This law is unchangeable and praying to change this law or a wish
to go to heaven is only wasting one's time. Prayers cannot change fate and experiencing of reactions is inevitable.
>> Inevitable is a BIG word.. and I would disagree....
Yes in the laws of Nature which apply in the 3rd dimension.. you are right IMHO... there is reaction. However, if one acts in accordance with the
will of the divine... as a divine emissary shall we say, or in tune with the tao if you prefer this language.. then there is no REACTION to suffer
for all reaction returns to the divine.
It is a subtle point. But I know that this exists for I have experienced it. What is so interesting about acting in what I call, SPIRIT...
following the inner guide in my actions, is that on the 3rd dimension, all looks to be very much as you describe. I
will say something to X and X gets hurt and then sends back something to "pay me back." Everyone observing from outside sees this as me getting my
"just rewards" or karmic return for my action. Sort of like a boomerang. They all feel very happy to see that the law of cause and effect is
working in this case.
But what is NOT SEEN is far more important. For in my saying something to X and following the inner guide (which may be a conversation between my
higher self and this other person's higher self to engage in dialogue for the sake of teaching alesson)...I act without personality of my own.. but
I act with full immersion in the SPIRIT...i.e. following the inner guide or will which comes from the higher self. I am consciously indifferent to
what I say and why I am saying it.. I am fully aware of being guided by something in this person that is "pulling" this action out of me
perhaps...at the higher levels of spirit. Then the action goes out of me without any personal KARMA for me... and when the reaction comes back
seemingly to me.... it passes right through me without any injury as perhaps it goes to the source of all that is. I experience no reaction
because I did not create the action. The action came through me going out and through me coming back. It is almost as if I am invisible or a medium
through which energy flows. I am indifferent in all cases...recognizing it is "god's business."
I have an example. I was acting as a hostess once at an Ashram where I had
to stay up late at night and greet latecomers and help them find their room and get them a soft drink, find sheets, help them make the bed etc.
It was a great job. I would meet people from all over the world and hear their stories of enormous pilgrimages to reach this place. It was an honor
to assist them and bring them some comfort. In one particular case, this lady had a child with her and had driven for hours in a state of
hysteria because she had left her abusive husband and was seeking refuge in the Ashram. I only knew that she had parked her car in a main bus
route with the doors wide open and was blocking traffic while she went inside and tried to find information. I came along and realized that the
first thing to do was to move her car out of the way, so lots of cars could get through the driveway. I greeted her and explained that I would
be able to help her with her things, but first of all she should move the car out of the way.
She did not understand and proceeded to rave and rant about not knowing what to do.. clearly hysterical. So I calmly asked for her keys and
explained I would park her car in the parking lot and return to help her as soon as I could. She gave me the keys and I rushed outside to move the
station wagon. Just as I got in, I noticed a child in the back seat of about 6 years age. I started the car and closed the doors, when suddenly
this woman rushes into the passenger side of the car and spits & screams obscenities that I have never heard before or since. It was clearly an
entity from her miserable life that was screaming at me...from within her. Her tirade passed over me.. for I was not responsible for it in any
way and knew it was something she had to release. When she ended, I was surprised to note that I had been totally indifferent to this language
and the force of energy which hit at me--an energy more vicious than anything I had ever known til then. I
felt as if I had a glass curtain around me. I said with love and composure, "Are you ready to move
the car now?" She went silent and I took care of everything from that point on and got her a room and a bed..etc
The next day she saw me and apologized. She explained how exhausted she was and how afraid that her husband was
pursuing her and all her fears for herself and the child....and said "How did you keep so calm while I was screaming so rabidly at you?"
I told her how it was nothing to do with me. I had been serving the Ashram in my capacity as night hostess and it was about God's
business what she was saying.. not mine. So it went to source and I never was harmed by the whole thing. And she said too, that it
seemed not to be affecting me as she said those words. It did not seem to her that it came back to her either. It was given to the
source and no karma was endured by either of us we both felt sure. The force of her anger and fear was so great, that she could have shaken
the city of Jericho, yet it never even affected me. This iswhat I mean by another level of laws. Not everything is so simple as cause and effect.
It is my contention that soon everyone will understand about these other laws and this other way of dealing with people's pain. It will be
transmuted as this was...into light and joy. Blessings, Ruth
***** Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:13:53 -1000
From: Ruth Trimble To: mraft
cc: "Harsh K. Luthar" , lodpressATnospamintercomm.com, Gene Kieffer , heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com,
kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Urdhava-retas
Message-ID:
Since this came through my mailbox I am going to reply to it.
>From M. Raft: >
> Dear Harsha, >
> Do you then concur that celibacy is a requirement for this process to occur? > Or can one do both, meditation and sexual practices?
> > Mike
Hi Mike... I believe that from my view as a female who received this awakening in the 70's, it appears to me that there are "stages" where
celibacy is not only desirable, but preferable in light of the extreme states of bliss available after the K. awakens. I was married when I got
this experience but it was a sex less marriage. I was extremely sexually frustrated.. worse than being single.. because I was also a prude and did
not have affairs. So for about 10 years while married, I was celibate in effect and then the explosion of kundalini awakening was even more
profound than for others. My girlfriend who was sexually active also got the awakening, but so much more gentle than mine.. and more mental than
physical. This is not science, it is heresay and testimonial evidence. The best advice you can follow on this is experiment with your own being. What
takes you to higher states you might continue.. theopposite effects might make you discontinue. It is your body, your little world of K. Do what is
right for you Mike. What is good for another may not be good for you. Isn't the whole point what Harsha says.. it is about CONSCIOUSNESS and
that is just inside you.. and to me the K. awakening is about finding out your DIVINITY.. INSIDE you.. not in anyone else. Look within. The answers
are all there perfect for you. Blessings, Ruth
******
Love allows freedom. Drop the idea that attachment and love are the same thing. They are enemies. It is attachment that destroys love. (Osho)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ruth Trimble email:
http://166.122.32.61/trimble/ *****
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:25:23 -0800 From: Kurt Keutzer
To: "'Gloria Greco'" , Gene Kieffer
Cc: "budspaceATnospamhotmail.com" ,
"heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com" , "kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com"
Subject: RE: Proof Message-ID:
What did you think of Herbert Benson's research with Tibetan yogis? Are you familiar with it?
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:20:30 -0500 From: Am
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Subject: Thanks guys!
Message-Id:
To all of you who resent me the "12 days" a big HUG! :)
Now I must unsub again to save my puter in the next few days.
LOVE, PEACE and LAUGHTER
Am
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:32:53 -0600 From: destinyATnospamcyberramp.net
To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com Cc: Ruth Trimble
Subject: Re: Urdhava-retas Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Hi Mike... I believe that from my view as a female who received this >awakening in the 70's, it appears to me that there are "stages" where
>celibacy is not only desirable, but preferable in light of the extreme >states of bliss available after the K. awakens. (snip)
Ruth...
Having gone through the process over a four month intensive about this time
last year, I hope you don't mind a few added thoughts.
I have seen sexually transmitted disease signs that read that it is the gift the keeps on giving. From one partner is attributed all the other
partnerns they have ever had, ad infinitum.
I have spent 7 years in celebacy by my own choice. For clarity, insight and for discernment of truth and values. It's what I came to and chose.
One of my teachers explained many years ago to me to be watchful in this
area. In sexual communion/union Spirits become one much like the signs I've mentioned above. You pick-up Spirits that hang around other people and they
can really play with your emotions and head if you're not clear.
It's why I consider the sexual act a ritual of Love that goes beyond the physical. I have seen many remarks made of Tantric traditions. Yet, there
is black as well as white Tantra. Many men are drawn to this area of study because of their lower base desires. I've seen it many times.
The best advice I can give is to look for a Spiritually aware and
responsible partner in Life. It's what I desire most. To share my living Spirit Reality seen reflected in the eyes of another Love Child of Light.
Light and Love always....
John bill beaudine
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:56:50 -0800 From: Kurt Keutzer
To: "'anandajyoti'" , "lodpressATnospamintercomm.com"
Cc: Gene Kieffer ,
"heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com" ,
"kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com"
Subject: Urdhvaretas,New Age, Gopi Krishna etc. Message-ID:
> >Gene>
> > > > I said that the best and easiest way to verify the existence of
> > Kundalini was by observing the phenomenon of Urdhava-retas in one in whom
> > the Power had just been awakened in a forceful and full manner. I said > > that the K.R.F. has been "preaching" this for thirty years, but so far
> > as we knew, not a single New Age writer has ever mentioned Urdhava-retas.
I'm not sure that there is a monolithic ``new age'' and as a result I'm not
sure it's useful to continue to criticize`` them''. I also don't understand why you're not content with the raising of the societal consciousness with
respect to kundalini. Why does it have to be urdhvaretas?
Anandajyoti>
Yes I would agree here, that if Urrdhva Retas are tested it would definitely
indicate the results, as you mention. But in the Kundalini or any system,. Urddhva Retas is but one of the many faces of it.. Urddhva Retas itself is
also an effect of the practices , it is not a cause. It is the transmutation of the
sexual energy, is the crux of it all. whether you do it by physical practice.
The real Urddhva Retas occurs only in those , who not only physically do it, but
emotionally and mentally too. Then only the real Urddhva Retas' effect would be
visible and manifested. This is my opinion.
> >Gene> > >
> > All I wish to say is that Urdhava-retas is not common. In all the > > years that I've been corresponding with people about Kundalini, only
> > a few dozen have reported their experiences in this regard. The problem > > is that when a person is not prepared for a forceful awakening, he or
> > she may be so driven by erotic desire as to indulge in sex to an > > inordinate degree and thus risk insanity. You see, the brain then
> > demands the "nourishment" of the reproductive essences, and when the > > person masturbates or has sexual intercourse, these essences are
> > not available. > >
I agree with Harsh's observation(if I could find the post) that urdhvaretas is a well known concept in Indian spirituality as a whole and
in kundalini yogas in particular. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi talks about urdhvaretas in his commentary on the Bhagavad Gita. Nietzsche writes on it
as well. As each individuals awakening is different then it is not uncommon for an individual to put particular emphasis on whatever was most striking
in their awakening. For some this will be a particular practice, for others celibacy for some even diet. Apparently urdhvaretas was the (or a) most
critical element of Gopi Krishna's awakening. Generally, I believe that *retas* is just one element in the chemistry of kundalini. There are
others -for some it might be breath (or prana), for Gloria it is perhaps a linking to the ``holy spirit'', for others a drowning in love.
Finally, regarding how does urdhvaretas work. I think that focusing on yogic anatomy of 1000 years ago will not help us much in coming to a modern
scientific understanding of the process. While I think that Don Benson's anecdote regarding his experience is a subjectively accurate description, I
don't think that it reflects the actual physiology of the process. We don't have an understanding of what it is that is actually retained and
reabsorbed during urdhvaretas.
Kind Regards, Kurt Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:23:34 -0600
From: amckeonATnospamhsmail.nfld.k12.mn.us To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: TEST: IGNORE Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Have I really been unsubscribed for too many bounces? :( Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:46:19 -0800
From: Tantrika To: Ruth Trimble , Gloria Greco
Cc: Gene Kieffer , heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Urdhava-retas Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1"
At 08:58 AM 12/22/97 -1000, Ruth Trimble wrote: >I consider this a form of communicating "Through" others and inciting
>people's emotions that is akin to something witches are prone to do.. i.e. >sending their energies through others to get revenge etc. but appear to be
>innocent. First of all Dear kundalini-l,
I'm sorry to come off this way as one of my first posts but I have to find out if this is the general resonance of the list. With a name like Kundalini-L I thought that the members of this list were open minded to Earth religions and people of that path. The Above makes me wonder seriously. Considering the listowner recently posted a Pagan Xmas Charol I'm very confused.
Dear Ruth,
Being a Witch, I would like to point out that your assumptions of the method of witches to be rather one-sided and well...basically wrong, at least in terms as I practice witchcraft and those that I know practice it. Most of us live by the Rede "And it harm none, do what you will." I don't know where you got this hostility from, but I hope to dispell it in your heart and avert a negative assumption by others who don't understand Neo-Paganism.
Let's strive for a little religious tolerance here and not making assumptions about how people approach things. I think you must have misspelled the word, perhaps?
If you are still confused about the modus operandi of modern neo-pagan Witchcraft and magic, I suggest you read Drawing Down the Moon by Margo Adler, Real Magic by Isaac Bonewits, or Spiral Dance by Starhawk. The religion is very spiritually based in healing and evolvement. There are also *numerous* websites about it. just do a search on *wicca* or *neo-paganism*.
I would not bring this to the list, but I wasn't sure how many of you are aware that many of us in this religious path are very weary of being demonized, when we don't deserve it. My path is a path of love and healing and POSITIVE action, and I find such statements of Ruth, to be generous, not only ignorant, but very inflammatory. The k is not limited to a religious or philosophical bent, it is not limited to a religious or cultural ambience, it is in fact something inherent in all beings, the only reason that it is identified with Hindu/Buddhists teachings is because they had a written language to identify it. There is no reason that the laplander, or the Shamanic medicine woman of the Lakota doesn't work with it too, as I'm sure they do (and they are all witches). While Hindhuism/Buddhists teachings may have studied this more in depth and written about it, it does NOT mean that a celtic witch was not aware of this energy nor didn't work with it. This is something inherent to ANYONE who taps into the life force.
Considering that the Celts were a Indo-European race that arose from the same Baltic source as the Hindhus, there is no reason to assume that there was or wasn't some sort of magical relationship between the Celts and the Dravidian culture of India. (No reason to assume there wasn't, I'm as blaseed by revisionism as the next person...) But it doesn't take much imagination to see the relationship between Cernunos and Shiva if you look at iconography. Nothing makes any culture more right or wrong than an other, only different. To equate "witchcraft" as evil is a biased and ignorant stand to take, and also exceedingly closed to the possibilities around you. I doubt, Ruth, with the name you have that you are a Hindu. You more than likely have Celtic, or Nothern European roots. Do *not* through the baby out with the bathwater. There is wisdom in the path of the Celts just as there is within the path of the Hindhu/Buddhist interpretation of Tantra.
I know already that the energy raised in Tantra, or with Kundalini is the equivalent or more energy raised in a magickal working that I do as a witch. In fact that is how I *do* my witchcraft. I gravitated to Tantra because it is PROBABLY the most effective and efficient (and most pleasureable) magic that I've encountered. I approach it with awe and reverence. It is EXTREMELY powerful. The Shakti, or whatever Goddess you wish to name the energy as the power of creation, is not to be taken lightly. I believe in using the most effective tools for the job.
Just as i wouldn't use a cheap tool for carpentry but instead use a Makita, I wouldn't use a cheap tool for sexual magick like ceremonialism (at least for me it didn't work -- it may work for some people). What I ask is that tolerance be shown for the many religious paths on the path of the divine Serpent/Mother Goddess and that assumptions aren't made about a path because you have no knowledge of it.
My totem is the hummgbird, My energy Aphrodite's...
Blessed Be and Never Thirst for the Waters of Life
Thou art God/dess
Joy Williams http://www.brainboutique.com/joywDate: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:53:03 -0800
From: Tantrika To: "keutzerATnospameecs.berkeley.edu" ,
"'anandajyoti'" , "lodpressATnospamintercomm.com"
Cc: Gene Kieffer , "heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com" ,
"kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com" Subject: Re: Urdhvaretas,New Age, Gopi Krishna etc.
Message-Id:
I'll be rude here and CC: everyone...
What the heck is Urdhvaretas?????? How many times must I ask?
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:01:23 -0500 From: Teresa
To: K List Subject: Good Breathwork Center
Message-ID:
Hello everyone, In the spirit of sharing good resources, here's a little bit about a
good place to do breathwork (and bodywork). I went this past weekend, stayed from Friday night to Sunday. It was the first time there for my
friend and I. (She was desparate for a breathwork session, I tagged along. We flew in to Baltimore, which is an inexpensive airport.)
Thomas Merton Brightman (it's his real name, he was named for a uncle),
operates a small retreat center just north of Baltimore. He does Grof method breathwork sessions every 2 weeks (on the weekend). He's been
doing this a long time and is highly skilled in both breath and body work.
The center is in a large house in the country. Great setting. Thomas
also has a great library that he lets guest use. My only reservation is that this is not a quiet place, and Thomas is not a quiet person (but
dealing with that is just a little more process, isn't it). Teresa
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