1997/12/21 19:02
kundalini-l-d Digest V97 #850
kundalini-l-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 850
Today's Topics: Re: Gene's view [ Ruth Trimble ]
A Muktananda Quickie [ destinyATnospamcyberramp.net ] Re: Urdhava-retas [ DonBBenson ]
Re: sharing [ Susanne Macrae ] Re: Gene's view [ LH5110 ]
Re: Urdhava-retas [ mraft ] Re: Apology [ Gloria Greco ]
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:32:38 -1000 From: Ruth Trimble
To: Harsh Luthar cc: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: Re: Gene's view Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
My Dear Harsha and List. > Dear Ruth,
> You raise important points. It is my view that Gene has deeply flawed > information on the state of Self-Realization and what it actually is.
Indeed I agree. I had this view years ago when I first got Kundalini Awakening.. and I sympathize with his dilemma. Since I encountered Ramana
Maharshi's work, I had to drop all those ideas... and a lot more besides!ATnospam#
But Harsha: It is thus more important than ever that someone like you be here on this
list and interacting with such beings, so that they can find out that their imaginations are leading them astray.. or at least away from the
truth. > >From his words, I discern that his personal experience of Kundalini and
> related phenomena is extremely limited. He speaks with much confidence > and criticizes the characters of various Gurus and even names one of
> them! I find this to be in extremely bad taste. Nothing that he has > written leads me to believe that he has the knowledge, wisdom or the
> experience to be criticizing others. > Harsha
I concur entirely. I did not say it quite so clearly as I do not know this gentleman and did not want to start a flame war with him. He attacked my
own beloved Guru... as so many people do.. and all they reveal is their extremly limited understanding of how great beings operate in the 3rd
dimension.. it is a hall of mirrors and they are looking at themselves thinking they are looking at "another". It is just a trick - a test that
these great beings give their disciples and others to find out if they discern what is REAL or if they are looking only at the flickering images
on the maya-movie screen. Dear Harsha, you would never believe how few of all the hundreds of thousands of people that Muktananda encountered gave
shaktipat to and uplifted who have been able to survive the 15 years since his departure without buying into this kind of criticism. It shows you
how someone like Jesus can get distorted and misquoted.. it is part of the strange refractions of the truth that one encounters in this 3rd
dimensional world.
> > Mr. Gene has unfortunately exposed far more of himself here than he would > > probably have wanted us to know.
> > I think I summed it up here.
****** Love allows freedom. Drop the idea that attachment and love are the same
thing. They are enemies. It is attachment that destroys love. (Osho) ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ruth Trimble email: http://166.122.32.61/trimble/
***** Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:23:19 -0600
From: destinyATnospamcyberramp.net To: kundalini-lATnospamlists.execpc.com
Subject: A Muktananda Quickie Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think it was 1979 or 80 (lifetime ago) when I went to a huge gathering and meditation at his center in Los Angeles. There must have been at least
20 thousand people there, if not more.
At the end of the meditation, a line began to form to go up and meet the Swami. So, I got in line. About 45 or 60 minutes later, I got to the front
of the line. Here's this little guy with the greatest smile on his face as he sat in a lotus position. He had about 6 or 7 male disciples around him,
and after my ceremonial bow to the All and One on my knees, one of them came up to me and whispered in my ear to ask me what I wanted.
I told him I would really love it if the Swami would take the time to touch
my third eye. The guy went over to Muktananda and whispered my request in his ear. He burst out in laughter. Then he finger motioned for me to come
nearer to him. Then he took an eagles feather and whacked it right across my forehead.
I smiled, bowed in respect and left with that indelible memory. :-)
Light and Love to All....
John bill beaudine Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:22:56 EST
From: DonBBenson To: lodpressATnospamintercomm.com, gkiefferATnospamnetaxis.com
Cc: heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Urdhava-retas
Message-ID:
Dear Gene Kieffer, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you -- for your recent summary statement
which Gloria Greco shared with us on the K-list. I feel that tremendous breakthroughs are being made in this discussion group regarding a host of
previously unresolved issues arising out of Kundalini phenomena. And everyone is contributing to this vitally important (and often painfully difficult) work
in his or her own way. Your acknowledgment of the indescribable character of enlightenment
reminded me of the scripture verse I displayed on our neighborhood church sign this week: <Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!>> 2 Corinthians
9:15 The only perfect example of a fully enlightened person so far is Jeshua ha Mashiach (known to Gentiles as Jesus Christ) -- <For in Him dwells all the
fullness of the Godhead in bodily form.>> Colossians 2:9 The Bible clearly states that He is the One who created us male and female in the image of God,
and being born of a woman and the Holy Spirit (both Son of Man and Son of God) He is uniquely suited to lead all who are willing to perfect enlightenment.
Returning to a mundane level, I agree with your suggestion for scientific verification of Kundalini. Thirty-four years ago at age nineteen (while
sitting at a desk in the Mt. Holyoke College Library in my home town, trying by meditation and breath control to awaken my brain so that I could write a
term paper unifying the theories of Einstein, Bergson, and Jung for a philosophy course I was taking at Amherst College) I started to have an
orgasm. Being in a public place with ladies present, I made a determined effort with sphincter muscles not to ejaculate. To my shock and horror,
something much worse than the embarrassment of staining the front of my trousers occurred: I ejaculated into my spinal column! I had no idea this was
biologically possible, much less how it happened. In fact, I cannot verify that approximately 7 ml. of semen actually entered my spinal fluid and began
streaming toward my brain, but it sure felt like it. Whatever it was, clearly a powerful biological force had been set loose in my body.
On a practical level, it seemed I was in the midst of a major medical emergency, and to make matters worse I suspected it was far beyond the
competence of contemporary medical science. But Gopi Krishna came *online* as an *older brother* in the spirit, introduced me to *Lord Shushumna,* and
guided me safely through the obstacles and perils of this experience. On an intellectual level, within a few seconds or minutes, I learned all about how
the heavens and the earth and all the life on earth came into being -- an indescribable experience!
From my perspective then, it has always seemed likely that a simple medical procedure called a *spinal tap* under such circumstances would reveal
the presence of semen in the spinal fluid. This would constitute rudimentary scientific proof of Kundalini. I have never mentioned this before because the
idea (of jamming a needle into the spine of someone undergoing a sacred spiritual experience and drawing out fluid) is repugnant to me. On the other
hand, it may be that a research team with sufficient wisdom and skill to perform such tests without doing great harm can now be assembled. In any
case, the suggestion is becoming so obvious, that such research cannot be stopped. We can only hope to establish prudent guidelines.
Already there is interest in using the sperm of Nobel Laureates for artificial insemination of women who want smart children. Soon, there will be
interest in using such sperm for artificial insemination of the spinal fluid of Nobel Laureate wannabees. It seems many people will do anything to advance
their own ambitions, but will not not open themselves to the freely offered wisdom which comes down from above from the Father of lights.
Offered with thanks and best wishes, Donald B. Benson, Ph.D., M.Div.
In a message dated 97-12-20 20:10:34 EST, Gene Kieffer writes:
< I said that the best and easiest way to verify the existence of > Kundalini was by observing the phenomenon of Urdhava-retas in one in whom
> the Power had just been awakened in a forceful and full manner. >> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:20:23 +1030
From: Susanne Macrae To: John Lounsberry
CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: sharing
Message-ID:
Dear John,
One of the best things I have found about the list is that there are constant opportunities to look at why I act and react and to learn more
about myself.
I took an opportunity to point out to you, tongue in cheek, your obvious contraditions. This was not meant as a put down, merely for you to
think about what you are really saying.
Lets face it, what we say is really what we need to hear ourselves!
I'm hope you will either stay on the list or go through your own needs, not because you have taken offence at what I or any other person says.
When we choose to lose the benefit of the whole because of reaction to one, we only hurt ourselves.
Love, sue
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:58:19 -0500 From: "Rick Puravs"
To: Subject: Re: Gene's view
Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Gene's views are as welcome here as any other views, as long as they are presented as Gene's views. The problem i have is the tone of authority used
in some recent posts i have seen. Gene is from the academic world i must assume, and is associated with some Kundalini Research Center (whatever that is), and has written or is writing a book, or research paper on the subject. All of this is well and good. I wish him well in his projects. I only have an
indirect interest in the scientific verification of Kundalini because, in my view, Kundalini is a subjective experience. Science tends to discount the subjective and focus on what is measurable to an outside observer, what
experiments can be duplicated with the same results, that sort of thing. This has it's value no doubt, as well as its shortcomings. From my own point
of view i only tend to accept what i have verified by my own personal, subjective, experience. Science on the other hand will look for aspects of the Kundalini experience that are measurable, and so Gene has come up
with this emphasis on Urddhvaretas. This does appear to be an interesting area to explore and i would welcome more information about it. However the
information that has been presented so far seems to be simply opinions, accompanied by questionable demands to produce a "New Age writer" who
is publishing information on the subject. Now the first question that comes to mind is just what the hell is a "New Age writer".....are we talking about anything written in the past 30 years or so, or are we limiting this to Celestine
Prophecy types, or what? Then there is this standard Gene has apparently set for who is, or what constitutes being enlightened....and he questions if
Swami Muktananda was enlightened, or if anybody in recent years was by this standard he has set. There is talk about genius and spiritual genius and
what sort of output people in these catagories would be expected to produce. I would suspect that enlightenment is not something measurable but a subjective state. I am surprised that Gene is applying these standards to
something so clearly not measurable, coming from his academic background and all......this seems to me much like discussing if Bo Derek was really a
10 or was she just a 9 1/2. I would think that Urddhvaretas, while interesting, are not at the core of the
Kundalini experience, or central to enlightenment. It is said that certain powers may come along the way of the spiritual path....walking on water, healing, levitation, prophecy, remote viewing, etc.....and many view these as
distractions to the true path. Based on my current understanding (which is always subject to change) i would have to include Urddhvaretas with these, as i would also include any other aspect of Kundalini which science is likely
to find measurable. Then there was the reduction of mantra repetition to self-hypnosis, which would seem to miss a lot......such as the role of sound/vibration in creation.
So while Gene's information was helpful in providing food for contemplation, after i had thoroughly digested what was offered, much of it IMHO seemed
like bullshit. So i wonder, just what is this Kundalini Research Center, and what is the source of its funding.
Rick
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:46:05 EST From: LH5110
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Ruth's reponse to Kurt
Message-ID:
any help or comments appreciated Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:53:34 EST
From: LH5110 To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Gene's view Message-ID:
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
basically my answer to Ruth was to agree with her theory regarding Gene's
view. I have found in the past 25+ years that generally anyone who does not experience something themselve tries to negate it. (These were not my exact
words to Ruth, but close)
I also went on to request answers or suggestions with the readings I have been doing from the list for the past two months where there seems to be a lot of
people speaking about "pain" during their K opening. I experienced my K opening approximately 25 years ago and experienced no pain. The only
sensation I could describe was like an expansion feeling to my brain.
Any comments or suggestions are welcome.
Love and Light Linda
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:25:09 -0800 From: mraft
To: DonBBenson CC: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Urdhava-retas Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
mraft wrote:
> > DonBBenson wrote: To my shock and horror,
> > something much worse than the embarrassment of staining the front of my > > trousers occurred: I ejaculated into my spinal column! I had no idea this was
> > biologically possible, much less how it happened. In fact, I cannot verify > > that approximately 7 ml. of semen actually entered my spinal fluid and began
> > streaming toward my brain, but it sure felt like it. Whatever it was, clearly > > a powerful biological force had been set loose in my body.
> > Dear Don,
> > Thank you for sharing this. I am very curious though and if you don't mind
> sharing a bit more related to this, were you at the time celibate? THis seems > to be an important point as mentioned in Mr.Kiefer's post and in other
> literature on have come across re: the need restrain from passing out this > vital fluid/essence, in order to re-direct it either consciously or, as in
> some cases the process occurs without conscious direction. >
> I personally find this topic intensely interesting as I have been practicing > meditation for many years AND am driven by fierce erotic desires. So any help
> in this area would be greatly appreciated. I do not work with any teacher and > have not for the past 13 years.
> > Sincerely,
> > Mike
DonBBenson wrote: To my shock and horror, > something much worse than the embarrassment of staining the front of my
> trousers occurred: I ejaculated into my spinal column! I had no idea this was > biologically possible, much less how it happened. In fact, I cannot verify
> that approximately 7 ml. of semen actually entered my spinal fluid and began > streaming toward my brain, but it sure felt like it. Whatever it was, clearly
> a powerful biological force had been set loose in my body.
Dear Don,
Thank you for sharing this. I am very curious though and if you don't mind sharing a bit more related to this, were you at the time celibate? THis seems
to be an important point as mentioned in Mr.Kiefer's post and in other literature on have come across re: the need restrain from passing out this
vital fluid/essence, in order to re-direct it either consciously or, as in some cases the process occurs without conscious direction.
I personally find this topic intensely interesting as I have been practicing
meditation for many years AND am driven by fierce erotic desires. So any help in this area would be greatly appreciated. I do not work with any teacher and
have not for the past 13 years.
Sincerely,
Mike
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:03:33 +0100 From: Gloria Greco
To: Gene Kieffer CC: hlutharATnospambryant.edu, heartzenATnospamlistserv.servtech.com, kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Apology Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Gene Kieffer wrote:
> > Dear Harsha,
> > Since I'm not on the K-list but get CCs from Gloria, I somehow
> inadvertently didn't send your reply to one of my emails to her. This > was an oversight on my part due to haste or a blackout or whatever.
> I want nothing more than to have your views as well as mine to get > the broadest possible circulation.
Gloria here to Harsha, and Gene:
Thank you both for coming together her and allowing spirit to work and kind of break through some barriers. I always feel these undercurrents
and it just is not necessary especially when the Holy Spirit has specific works in the manifesting stage. And, people of love and
goodwill need to bury some of the old thought forms that have caused pain, so that real brotherly love and understanding can break away the
lower energies attached to all spiritual matters of importance.
Gene: >
> You have no idea how long I have waited for a dialogue such as this > to come about. From my point of view, there has been a wall of silence
> surrounding Kundalini. Yes, I know very well what the gurus say to > their own kind. But I am not in the least interested in gurus.
> > What I want is for the general public to be brought into these
> discussions. They are not apes. They are intelligent human beings > whose stake in the survival of the race is just as great as any
> guru's. They deserve to be treated as adults, as human beings, not > as children who cannot discern their left hand from their right.
> > We, this little band of brave K-listers, have the power to over-
> ride the charlatans and pretenders, the New Age writers and dispensers > of pablum, whose only wish is to bamboozle the public with the
> "conversations with God" and there innane "course in miracles," etc. >
> Why should we be held at bay? The Internet is our only outlet because > the publishing industry has no interest in anything except money, and
> they think the public is too ignorant and unintelligent to know the > difference between what is real and what is imagined.
> > Definitely, your ideas deserve a wide audience. I'm 100% for it.
> I want the same for my ideas and for those who enter into these > discussions. We can greatly help accelerate the transformation of
> humanity by lighting a match to the debate. Our little band can be > enlarged week by week if we serve up real meat and potatoes instead
> of tidbits of puffed rice.
Gloria: The debate is actually used to bring in new awareness and also to
neutralize negative thought forms that are just out of place in the frequency of love. What we have here is several very aware souls with
real sincere seekers all coming together asking what God's Will is for this time. How powerful is this?
>Gene: > At the very least, we can shame the New Age writers into silence
> by offering the Internet a thousand times more substance than they > have to offer by rehashing thoughts and books that were in fashion
> 60 to 90 years. Ago. If anyone were to go back that far and dig up > the inspiration literature published that long ago, they would soon
> discover the source of most of the so-called inspirational books of > today. There is nothing new, nothing original, on the inspirational
> best-seller lists in America. It is all rehash of what was written > nearly a century ago.
Gloria:
The new information is waiting to come through but a new container is needed to place it in, it is like the old wine skins, we have to create
the pure energy which will allow the communion to manifest, remember it isn't that it has to manifest to the masses, it can manifest to a small
group to create the momentum. >
Gene: > The only thing that is new is knowledge of Kundalini, and it has been
> squellshed by publishers whose minds are cast in crumbling concrete. >
> Thanks for the opportunity to jump onto my soapbox. >
> All best wishes, > gene
--
Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.
Gloria Joy Greco e-mail me at : lodpressATnospamintercomm.com and visit our homepages at:
http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/ &
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/ Hope you enjoy them!
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:25:45 GMT From: sassiATnospamworldnet.att.net (Jack)
To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Urdhava-retas
Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
were you at the time celibate? THis seems to be an important point as mentioned in Mr.Kiefer's post and in other literature on have come
across re: the need restrain from passing out this vital fluid/essence, in order to re-direct it either consciously or, as in
some cases the process occurs without conscious direction.
Seems to me someone on the list posted some info on this just recently. The Lymph system being used as a transmutation medium ?
However, there are different chemical bases and bonding agents in our lymph systems at different ages and of course gender qualifies one for
having any particular compound or lack thereof.
While I don't practice celibacy I think " moderation " is good advice. After abstaining 4-5 days my energy seems to build back up.
Unfortunately I can't seem to move it up from my lower spine anymore. So I quit trying to make it happen and just go with the flow. Any
phenomena that manifest themselves I think of a " perks " and I am at the point where I miss those perks enough that I have to distract
myself with reading and research.
Jack Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:25:58 GMT
From: sassiATnospamworldnet.att.net (Jack) To: LH5110
Cc: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com Subject: Re: Gene's view
Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
that generally anyone who does not experience something themselve tries to negate it.
That would have been me. Before awakening.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and experienced no pain. The only sensation I could describe was
like an expansion feeling to my brain.
The pain was in the side effects for me. I had terrible headaches and nausea but they were nothing compared to feeling of abandonment when
it stopped.
Jack Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 01:39:45 GMT
From: croatonATnospamworldnet.att.net (Croaton) To: kundalini-lATnospamexecpc.com
Subject: Re: Apology Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
The new information is waiting to come through but a new container is needed to place it in,
I hope that all of you will wish Nancy and I well in our collaboration, we welcome any and all advice on K and hope to publish
this Spring.
Jack Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 03:54:26 +0200
From: "Visic" To:
Subject: Back of neck:heat Message-ID:
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD0E8D.4C67F1A0"
Hi all :)
I was just wondering about this thing Ive been having. Lately Ive been having alot of heat in back of neck and I feel its K energy. I was wondering why this could be? Its almost like its being blocked there so it is trying to heat up the block so that it melts? Any comments on what you think it might be doing or why?
Thanks
In Love and Light Ivo Visic
Attachment Converted: "C:\SLIP\EUDORA\kundal61"
DISCLAIMER!
Home | Archive Index | Search the archives | Subscribe
K. List FAQ | Kundalini FAQs | Signs and Symptoms | Awakening Experiences | K. list Polls | Member Essays | Meditations | List Topics | Art Gallery | Cybrary | Sitemap | Email the moderators.
symbol.